PAF parts

[jwendt2003]

I heard that the parts of a PAF are more important than the wire or windings to create that sound. I understand soft iron was used for the slugs and bar (not sure about the adjust screws). Does anyone sell parts like this? It looks like these parts are mostly available made from 'steel'. -Jim

[belwar]

Every detail in the PAFs are important.. Bobbin shape, Metal Alloys, wire resistance, tension on the wire, baseplate material, screw head dimensions, etc.

There are not really ANY off the shelf parts which are exact, with the exception of wire. If you search hard enough you CAN find the right plain enamel. You can come pretty darn close with some parts, but others are a mile off. For example no one makes an accurate bobbin, but there are alloy accurate slugs out there. No one makes, or CAN make, a truly accurate PAF style keeper bar (I probably make the closest).

I'll tell you two things i've learned that I wish someone had told me early on... There is no such thing as "soft iron". Whats meant by soft iron is a 1940-50's era steel, and that you dont have to use exact parts to make a great sounding pickup! You can make some GREAT sounding pickups from off the shelf parts. Remember that there are a ton of crappy sounding PAF's out there. There is no one PAF sound.

[jwendt2003]

PAF parts

Thanks for the reply.
1. How would you rate the parts/techniques in order of importance?
2. Besides the wire, where can I find some of the 'must have' parts?
Thanks, Jim

[Spence]

" You can come pretty darn close with some parts, but others are a mile off. For example no one makes an accurate bobbin, but there are alloy accurate slugs out there. No one makes, or CAN make, a truly accurate PAF style keeper bar (I probably make the closest). "
That's just not true. that's the easiest thing of all and so I think we'll have to have a keeper show down.
But in any case, what does it matter when you have a Leesona. $450 a set for mostly Stew mac style components. Did you manage to get your butyrate bobbins sorted out after Belwar ?

[chevalij]

" But in any case, what does it matter when you have a Leesona. $450 a set for mostly Stew mac style components. Did you manage to get your butyrate bobbins sorted out after Belwar ?

That's one thing I've learned to like about Spences posts. His subtle approach to a subject

[David Schwab]

But in any case, what does it matter when you have a Leesona. $450 a set for mostly Stew mac style components. Did you manage to get your butyrate bobbins sorted out after Belwar ?

I don't think Belwar is going to be selling pickups...

[belwar]

" You can come pretty darn close with some parts, but others are a mile off. For example no one makes an accurate bobbin, but there are alloy accurate slugs out there. No one makes, or CAN make, a truly accurate PAF style keeper bar (I probably make the closest). "
That's just not true. that's the easiest thing of all and so I think we'll have to have a keeper show down.
But in any case, what does it matter when you have a Leesona. $450 a set for mostly Stew mac style components. Did you manage to get your butyrate bobbins sorted out after Belwar ?

Sure, the keeper is easy to make look right, but unless you have a stock of 30+ year old steel, or are willing to buy HUGE ammounts from China, then you CANT make an accurate keeper. I'm also assuming that you have access in the UK to 3/16 x 1/8" stock - In america i've only found one supplier that has it - one. When I said that "i make the closest" I didnt really phrase that right, it would have been more accurate to say "I sell some to forum members, and they're probably the most accurate you can buy". I didnt mean to say that mine were somehow better than anyones else .. except yours! :>

I accept your challenge of a keeper show down! Who shall we have judge?

Also, the bobbin work is getting there. A two month stall due to the economy, suddenly im the painter, body sander, janitor, and customer service guy but im back on track. All my ducks are in a row - bobbin is designed, molder is lined up, material is available. All thats left is to have the mold designed and build it, and the design is going to the molder tommorow.

[jwendt2003]

I guess my newbie question is: which parts have to be an accurate copy to get good results? Are there ones I definitely have to have, and 'cheap' ones I have to avoid that kill the sound no matter how good you put it together? -Jim

[RedHouse]

....I heard that the parts of a PAF are more important than the wire or windings to create that sound....

IMHO there are only few here that would say that, the others will say: "...it was nice, oh how we can do better these days...".

As for me, playing since 1972, and many-a-PAF over the years, the one thing that comes to mind most often to me is how they were just ...ALL OVER THE PLACE in tone.

What is the PAF tone? ...Jimmy Page? ...Peter Green? ...Mike Bloomfield? ...etc, ...etc, ..etc.

If you put one of our modern-wound pickups in the hands of any one of those guys in their hay-day you would have set the tone example just like they took off-the-shelf pickups and made them sound great in their day.

These days we all too often throw around the term "PAF" as if it's like a Big-Mac that tastes the same wherever you go, but in fact PAF's sounded sooooo much different one to the next that it can be a real discrace to the wood (guitar) to try to force a "PAF" sound into a guitar, the wood influences a pickup more than the other way around. A guitar will take it, or fight it.

The metal, nope it's not the same, the wood isn't either, and the players aren't either, IMHO it's best to come to grips with what we have arrived at today and try to apply it to getting a sound that a player can use to excel.

[jwendt2003]

As for me, playing since 1972, and many-a-PAF over the years, the one thing that comes to mind most often to me is how they were just ...ALL OVER THE PLACE in tone.

So it can't be the wood or the players because you thought the "PAF"s were all over the place in tone differences. I can't imagine the parts were radically changed from one to another; they had to have them made in batches by the hundreds or thousands. Maybe the difference was in how they were wound. I wonder what makes an original PAF sound bad; or muddy, and another sound great?

[belwar]

I think that some of the parts were the same throughout the PAF era, with a few different exceptions. Magnets for example came from at least 3 different manufacturers, probably wire too - though I admittedly have not evidence. You have to remember that in the late 40's and through the 50's gibson was virtually broke. The Guitar market was in shambles and makers were struggling after the war. Gibson at the time was a very utilitarian pragmatic company. They used what was cheap and available, and often used B-stock. Thier injection mold for bobbins was butchered several times instead of making a new one.. Thier coil winders were bought second hand - including the Leesona they had. The other winders were hand built or butchered to suit. makers were doing every thing they could in the 50's to try and get business. every single sale mattered. No doubt there was some revolutionary stuff for the time, but living in the guitar world all my life I see every day how much is sheer accident, and how many things that are just thrown together from extra parts turn and out to be absolutely amazing.

[Possum]

....

Belwar you need to put a few more years into your research, I'm into my 7th year and still doing metallurgical lab work. I've been using that stock you "found" since 2004. No disrespect intended Others here are obviously using it too, judging from photos that have been posted, its no secret and nothing new.

This is complicated territory, there are parts that are close alloys but the measurements, MASS is wrong. I am still doing work through a metallurgist friend on looking extensively and deeply into 50's metallurgy. I have had a bunch of different year PAFs in here now, completely dissected and have sent a whole bunch of different year Gibson vintage parts to the metallurgist who is a magnetic alloys specialist, so I have a very broad view of the changes that happened up and through TTops. The stuff he is doing with me would literally cost thousands of dollars, he is helping me just because he's a good guy and wants to help me further my goals. Talk about a gift from the PAF gods... The most unique PAF I've seen so far is a rare '61, that had some radically different things about it, yet its still a PAF.

As to the 50's alloys yes they are different, as different as the magnet wire is. You won't ever see a direct match for either ever again.

I am getting really tired of people saying there is no "one" PAF tone. There are differences in the alloys over all the years I've seen, but not big enough to cause major tonal changes. If you have a stock set of parts that are physically all the same sizes and vary how much wire goes on and change the magnets, thats why they sound different. What you aren't paying attention to is that there IS ONE CHARACTERISTIC that they all SHARE. A 9K PAF and a 9K StewMac kit aren't going to sound the same, no way, its because the parts designs are radically different. The TRUTH is that Jimmy Page's guitar, and Peter Greens', and Duane Allmans, Claptons', Bloomfields', if those guys had all swapped their guitars around you wouldn't notice the difference. The difference is the PLAYER, and his gear, his hands, his talent, and what amp he was plugged into. All of them have identifiable PAF tone. The idea that each of those guitars had special or magical qualities that made each one sound so different is ridiculous. Bloomfield only played that one Les Paul yet you can find recordings and videos of the same guitar sounding very different, mostly because of the different amps he used. There is ONE PAF characteristic that they all share. How to explain it in words is the problem, I suck at that, but I can hear it.

Now what boggles my mind is that Gibson, Shaw, Holmes, all had access to what metals were used, what magnets, yet NONE of them even come close in any of their products....why? Is it interpretation of the data, is it that they were trying to "improve" the PAF design for the mass market Guitar Center crowd? Are they just plain dumb and didn't do any deep level research on PAFs?

I've also had all the major parts maker's metal parts analyzed with astonishing results, they are all over the map and miles away from PAFs. Also just got my Holmes pickup analyzed, his stands out from the crowd, his keeper is unique among all and obviously he has some overseas source that is making custom alloy stuff for him. But even his pickup is miles away from being anything like a PAF, its his own unique design. Why players say his is a great "PAF" is a mystery, its more TTop than anything else.

PAFs are a deep subject, and the more you look the deeper the pool gets, I'm still digging deeper and still experimenting weekly tweaking mostly small things at this point. I luv them little critters

[Spence]

Sure, the keeper is easy to make look right, but unless you have a stock of 30+ year old steel, or are willing to buy HUGE ammounts from China, then you CANT make an accurate keeper. I'm also assuming that you have access in the UK to 3/16 x 1/8" stock - In america i've only found one supplier that has it - one. When I said that "i make the closest" I didnt really phrase that right, it would have been more accurate to say "I sell some to forum members, and they're probably the most accurate you can buy". I didnt mean to say that mine were somehow better than anyones else .. except yours! :>

I accept your challenge of a keeper show down! Who shall we have judge?

Also, the bobbin work is getting there. A two month stall due to the economy, suddenly im the painter, body sander, janitor, and customer service guy but im back on track. All my ducks are in a row - bobbin is designed, molder is lined up, material is available. All thats left is to have the mold designed and build it, and the design is going to the molder tommorow.

We invented imperial units of measure over here and most people, even young kids growing up, still use imperial by the time they're adults.
Possum's correct in saying that there wasn't a consistent grade of steel used in Gibson's keepers. Your sample keeper may not be a representation of the majority or even the best. As for a judge for the show down, who do you think is qualified?

I'm genuinely pleased to here you're making progress and look forward to seeing your butyrate bobbins.

[jwendt2003]

As to the 50's alloys yes they are different, as different as the magnet wire is. You won't ever see a direct match for either ever again.

So SD, obviously there are people making great sounding 'PAF' replicas these days , without original 50's alloys, perfectly matched wire, and exact bobbins (It's beyond me why a certain alloy can't be manufactured; but I know nothing about metals), but if these variables don't have to be exact to make a great sounding pickup, then why all the fuss? I understand the alloys used are important, but I don't understand what the deal is about '50's' alloys, especially since you stated from extensive research that the Gibson metals varied over time.

Is there a corrolation between the metal variances and good/bad sounding PAFs? I also wonder how some of the original PAFs came out sounding 'muddy' or lifeless. Didn't they also use the correct sized bobbins, screws, keeper bar, etc...? From an amateur point of view, It makes more sense to me what you said about the windings, wire and magnets having a greater impact and variance than anything.

[belwar]

We invented imperial units of measure over here and most people, even young kids growing up, still use imperial by the time they're adults.
Possum's correct in saying that there wasn't a consistent grade of steel used in Gibson's keepers. Your sample keeper may not be a representation of the majority or even the best. As for a judge for the show down, who do you think is qualified?

I'm genuinely pleased to here you're making progress and look forward to seeing your butyrate bobbins.

Also what are our criteria going to be for the showdown? Looks? Tone?

Maybe I should just send you some of mine, and you send me some of yours and we'll pat each other on the back ... knowing full well that our own is better..

Damn it I hate when people talk trash and then back it up.

PM your address in the UK i'll ship you a few.