Two Pretty Noob Questions

[verhoevenc]

So despite one of these questions being discussed quite often, I couldn't find a "why" answers. I was wondering why there is a need to tape, spray finish, etc. on a single-coil style bobbin in order to put something between the magnets and the wire if the wire already has a coating that should do this? Or am I missing something?
Also, I'm aware of HF, PE, Poly, ETC. coatings, but what is this offering from BAE, it just lists it as "single" and "red"? AWG 42 Copper Magnet Wire SPN 155 Red - eBay (item 230592606990 end time Mar-09-11 07:48:05 PST)
Thanks,
Chris

[big_teee]

I spray the bobbin after they are assembled with Krylon Clear lacquer, to help keep the Flatwork from Flaring.
It helps lock the forbon to the magnets.
The reason for the tape is the magnets have small cast marks on the magnets, They are rougher than they appear.
The tape keeps the wire from shorting to the magnets.
You may get by with not taping, but eventually you will have a shorted magnet.
The wire should be the SPN that is single ply Solderable Nylon.
Good Luck,
Terry

[verhoevenc]

Is that stuff any good for our sort of applications?
Chris

[big_teee]

It survives 150f wax pot.
Some guys use the MinWax brand.
For Tape Some use Scotch Magic tape.
I use and Like Waxed Floral tape.
Its already wax based, and It stretches some to conform to your bobbin width.
You need to experiment and come up with what works best for you.
Later,
T

[Danelectron]

Is that stuff any good for our sort of applications?

I assume you are referring to the SPN wire. Yes, it's fine. I've been using it. It's not vintage correct if you are rewiring a vintage pickup, but it works great otherwise. I actually bought some of the red colored stuff to use with some red transparent bobbins, wrapped them with some red paper tape and mounted them in my LP. They look great with the red in the sunburst.


Edit: Duh, just looked at the ebay description. That's the same stuff. Oh, if you get those Ebay red transparent bobbins you may want to mic and ream them. The first one I did the bobbin cracked down the middle when I forced the slugs in. They are not forgiving and will let you press about 4 in then SNAP.

[verhoevenc]

Cool, thanks guys. Now that I'm searchin' around, I have seen the "SPN" label around here. I'm guessing it's not one of the more commonly used ones like PE, HF, and Poly. Doesn't seem to pop up as much, but good to know it's legit.
Thanks!
Chris
PS: I just noticed we now have a beginners section and my thread was bumped into here. Fun! Glad to be an early part of the learner's group!

[John Carlsen]

Actually, SPN and Poly are the same thing. If I'm not mistaken, SPN stands for "Single Poly Nylon". I use Poly all the time with my pickups. As far as the sound difference of different pickup wire insulations, none of the insulations themselves make much, if any difference in sound at all. The thing that I've found to make the difference is the thickness of the insulation, rather than the makeup. As far as I know, Plain Enamel is the thinnest, and SPN (poly) and HF (Heavy Formvar) can be ordered in a number of different thicknesses, e.g. single, double or triple build. If you get the single build poly (which is pretty normal for most things) then HF is the thickest and will change the sound slightly if you wind the same number of turns, as each turn of the copper wire is slightly farther away from the other when compared to poly or plain enamel. Basically, it makes the coil slightly thicker because there is a little more insulation.

You know, the biggest question I always had was, if there is really not much of a sound difference between the different types of insulation, then why would I want to pay $37/lb for PE if I can get SPN for $17/lb? Well, the only REAL answer that I could find was that PE and HF are best when you're doing vintage repro pickups because that's what they used in the 50s and 60s. So, it's not necessarily because of the sound, but to be vinage-correct. There's a lot of demand for that kind of stuff, so it makes sense to do that.

I hope this answers some of your questions and wards off some of the concerns you have with getting into all this!

[verhoevenc]

Thanks guys. It's also great to know about the builds. I saw that on one of the suppliers' sites and was wondering what the "norm" is for pickups. It seems single build is totally fine unless I'm LOOKING for a wider coil.
Thanks,
Chris

[big_teee]

Actually, SPN and Poly are the same thing. If I'm not mistaken, SPN stands for "Single Poly Nylon". I use Poly all the time with my pickups. As far as the sound difference of different pickup wire insulations, none of the insulations themselves make much, if any difference in sound at all. The thing that I've found to make the difference is the thickness of the insulation, rather than the makeup. As far as I know, Plain Enamel is the thinnest, and SPN (poly) and HF (Heavy Formvar) can be ordered in a number of different thicknesses, e.g. single, double or triple build. If you get the single build poly (which is pretty normal for most things) then HF is the thickest and will change the sound slightly if you wind the same number of turns, as each turn of the copper wire is slightly farther away from the other when compared to poly or plain enamel. Basically, it makes the coil slightly thicker because there is a little more insulation.

You know, the biggest question I always had was, if there is really not much of a sound difference between the different types of insulation, then why would I want to pay $37/lb for PE if I can get SPN for $17/lb? Well, the only REAL answer that I could find was that PE and HF are best when you're doing vintage repro pickups because that's what they used in the 50s and 60s. So, it's not necessarily because of the sound, but to be vinage-correct. There's a lot of demand for that kind of stuff, so it makes sense to do that.

I hope this answers some of your questions and wards off some of the concerns you have with getting into all this!

That is mostly true.
Keep in mind that all wire types do sound different.
SPN Poly, though it is nearly the same size still has a bit of a different tone that PE All things equal.
Heavy Formvar does sound quite a bit different than Poly because it is larger in diameter.
I you wind 2 Strat coils the same DCR one with SPN and one with HFV, there will be a difference you can hear, IMO.
I still recommend starting with SPN, and as the need arises get the additional wire that you need.
Good luck,
Terry

[John Carlsen]

The differences will be more pronounced if you wind to DCR rather than turns count. At least, thats what I've found. When I made two identical pickups, one with HF and one with SPN, and both with exactly the same number of turns, they sounded almost exactly the same, but the dcr was different. I did notice a difference in feel however.

[verhoevenc]

Wind to a specific DCR? I know it must be done... but what's the easy way to do this? I mean, wouldn't you have to do like a couple hundred turns, scrap the wire, test, refinish that area of wire, do a couple hundred turns, test.... etc. until you get the right DCR? This seems like it'd be quite a process to do every time round? Granted, if making a lot of the same pickup, you'd know what DCR=wind number for that particular model after your first one I'd imagine.
Chris

[John Carlsen]

It's actually pretty easy to check dcr as you go and I imagine that people who do this do not have an apparatus to count turns on their winder, or at least choose not to use them. I have checked dcr before in mid wind, and i just sand a little of the insulation off and use my multimeter to measure from there and from the start of the coil. You don't have to scrap anything. I imagine that once you've done a number of pickups like this, you get used to how the pickup looks at a certain point and how long at a certain speed you have to go to get to a certain point. I wind by turns count, but I also wind a lot of different pickups and dont trust my eye to tell me when it's getting to a certain point. As far as measuring dcr mid wind, all you have to do is sand a little and then coat with clear nail polish when you're done. The whole process for me takes a little less than a minute. I imagine Terry does something similar.

[copperheadroads]

Just document all your pickups you wind .....turns & dcr .after a while its pretty easy to acheive a certain DCR -if you wind to dcr
or try the coil estimator
Coil Estimator