Pros and Cons + Ideas

[kathaklysm]

I'm looking to get an amp and/or distortion pedal. Playing mostly metal, so i want a killer metal tone but also a smooth clean sound and other rock/blues possibilities. Now what are the pros and cons of these?

distortion pedal + clean channel amp (maybe tube?) ?
distortion pedal + overdrive channel ?
or just a good amp?

The places I'm planning to play at the moment are just clubs, nothing really big. Also my budget is of 1200-1300$. Or maybe it's a better idea to focus on a better guitar now? I own an LTD f-50 and I've been playing for almost 3 years and I feel the guitar is getting a bit 'rusty'.

I've been looking at these amps: Peavey 5150 and JCM800, but they are kinda expensive and too big. Also I've seen Vox VT40+, which seems to be a pretty good choice or the marshall 30dfx. Any advice on how to choose one, except the "go try them"? Or any other amps I should really try?

For pedals aswell I was pretty much thinking of the ibanez ts9, digitech mt2 (which seems to have a lot of bad reviews although it's famous ), boss od3 or the mxr dime distortion. Same questions as for the amps, any other ideas?

What would be a good combination of pedal/amp with that price, and how to use it?
Are there any models which can be produced in different countries, like the idea of ESP and LTD? built in USA meaning higher quality, or something like that? something i should really consider before buying? forgot to say that I live in switzerland.

I know I wrote a lot but I really want to make a good decision and to know what I'm looking for when i go to the shop. Thanks in advance

[defaced]

There are alot of ways to get there. Usually it's a good high gain tube amp, and sometimes an boost/overdrive pedal (tubescreamer) out front. Good clean channels on these amps are hit or miss. So, a better question is, what kinda sound do you want? Can you post an example youtube clip or something? For instance, I hate the 5150, but it's a good amp for what it does, I just don't like. I prefer something more like the Fryette Deliverance. Also, is this just for you to practice with, or are you in a band/plan to be in a band?

I a new guitar won't give you want you want without the right amp/speaker setup. In this instance, the pickups in the guitar will do more than the guitar itself. I'm of the opinion that high gain preamps destroy any subtleties you're going to hear from one guitar to the next if the electronics are the same. I've read the same about high output pickups.

[pdf64]

What are you using now? What do you like and dislike about it? How is it not meeting your needs?
Metal type tones generally have a scooped mid tone setting, which needs a lot of amp power / big speakers to get sounds levels that keep up with a drummer.
A combo with open back speakers probably wouldn't get a solid enough tone at high levels. A 50watt amp with 2 x 12" closed back speakers is probably the minimum basic spec. Pete.

[kathaklysm]

I just chose the first video I saw with the jcm800 and I can say I really like this type of sound.

YouTube - Marshall 2203KK Kerry King signature JCM800 head

I also like playing with the guitar rig 4 and I have to say that my favorite tone i use there sounds close to the one in the video. As for a clean part, the enter sandman intro is the first one i can think of. Others might be ac/dc type of tone or zz top or satriani solo tone. There a lot and it would be awesome to have all of them but i know it's not that easy.

I plan to be in a band soon, it's just hard to find the right people, you know. That's why I'm not rushing on my decision, I don't need an amp or pedal right now.

What I have right now is the guitar ltd f-50, line6 ux1 and guitar rig Had a little 15w yamaha amp but it sounded so bad after a few years of playing that I got rid of it. I like that I can get a huge amount of different tones on the computer but the idea to play live and with no need of a computer is what I'm looking for.

What do you think of a Blackstar ht 60?

[defaced]

If I remember right, the KK version of the JCM 800 has a tube screamer type circuit built in. This is the "assault" knob he's talking about. Research this and verify, I think the schematic for this amp is out there (schematic heaven maybe???).

Metallica used the Roland Jazz Chorus for their clean sounds very very often. There was a thread recently on this amp, might be worth digging up.

The ESP he's using in that video probably has an EMG 81 in the bridge. That is alot of the note clarity you hear in the sound. You won't get that with passive pickups (at least none that I've played).

Someone confirm, isn't AC/DC kinda a hallmark example of the JCM800 sound?

Given all that, I'd either buy or build a JCM800, put a suitable clean channel in it, and run a tube screamer on the floor.

What I'm hearing on Youtube, the Blackstar HT 60 won't get you the distortion you want for metal. That kinda distortion requires four cascaded stages usually (Soldano SLO, Mesa Recto, Fryette Deliverance/Pittbull, Bogner Ubserschall, et al). With a JCM800 (three cascaded stages), the tube screamer kinda acts as the fourth stage.

[kathaklysm]

What does "four cascaded stages" actually mean? I'm still new to this stuff

I should really find a guitar with EMG pickups then. I played once on an ESP M401 which had the 81/85 combo (and the guitar is now discontinued I see) and it felt awesome, exactly what I'm looking for. Tried LP's as well and ibanez, not my type.

Hmm, how to build a JCM800? And kind of a random question, what's the deal with all these E-guitars?

[defaced]

Cascading is one amplifying stage feeding another. So a 12AX7 preamp tube has two triodes in it. Those triodes can be configured to do lots of different things, but for right now, we'll just consider them voltage amplifiers. So, you feed a signal into them (guitar) and the triode amplification stage amplifies the signal. Ok, that's nice, but it's just bigger, and maybe some distortion, but not alot. The thing is, we want distortion, LOTS of it. So, let's take that big signal (and maybe distorted signal) and amplify it more. So stage 1 feeds stage 2. Because stage 2 clips the signal more, we have more distortion than before. If you do this three times,1 -> 2 -> 3, you have three cascaded stages. If you do it four times, you have four cascaded stages. There's some other voodoo happening in these amps, but for the time being, we'll just leave it at that.

Now, how to build a JCM 800. It's easy, if you know what you're doing. If not, it's a royal pain in the butt because you've got to learn ALOT before you can do anything meaningful. This may or may not be worth it to you. Depends on what you want out of the deal. Alot of the guys here build, so we'd probably build it. We're also nuts and like electronics, so take that for what it's worth. If this doesn't sound like your brand of vodka, go buy one.

So anyway, go dig up the JCM 800 schematic on schematic heaven (ok, I did the digging, 2203 Lead MasterVol 100w) and take a look at it. Besides probably looking like Greek right now, just try to identify the triode stages (they're on the first page) and see if you can "see" them feeding into each other. I usually print schematics and highlight the signal path. Makes it alot easier to see what's happening.

Schecter Hellraiser guitars have EMG81s in the bridge. As do alot of Jackson's. You can usually find these with no problem at Guitar Center.

[kathaklysm]

Thank you for the answers. It seems I'll have to order the amp, building one doesn't seem to be a good idea for me although I could ask my father, he knows a lot of electronics stuff.

Any other opinions around here? Any other cool amp you think I must try? For example someone told me about the Marshall JVM or the Laney VH100R

[Chuck H]

JM2C...

A good big (ish) tube amp with a master volume or a master modification and a stomp box will absolutely get you there. Big power is the thing. You need big power to keep the bottom end tight on heavy distortion and a big tube amp will almost always get a good clean tone. Lots of guys run two different distortion pedals for different tones. A good loud tube amp and a pedal board with a wah, distortion, delay and some kind of modulation effect like phase shift, chorus or flange will get all the tones you could ever need. I mentioned a master volume. A little tube OD seems to do a lot of justice to distortion tones. So it's good if you can use a pedal for distortion but also OD the preamp and then turn down with the master volume. For your thing the further the tone stack is from the early stages the better. If all your EQ control is post distortion that would be best for what your doing. OK, all this said...

Some candidates for a big (ish) tube amp would include (but not be limited to)
Ampeg V4 or VT22 head
Fender SF Bassman 100 head
Sovtek MIG 100 head
Traynor Bassmaster (not a real power house but sound just great)

You can get a good example of any of these amps, a cabinet and two distortion pedals within your budget. I hope other similar amp suggestions will follow. But the point is that with a good big tube amp and the multitude of pedals available now the tone world can be your oyster for under a grand.