Deluxe despair...

[Fingerpicker]

Hello everyone,

I've got an original Fender Blackface Deluxe amp (1965) - which in a few months of use lost its brilliant, rich tone. We tried everything with tubes and capacitors - without avail.
Now I'm desperate enough to ask for help in english - sorry for the terminological mistakes, I'm from Hungary (Central Europe).

The problem in short:When I bought the amp it has such a rich, natural tone like a real Steinway grand piano - now it's sounds metallic like a digital piano.

I play fingerpicking style (like Mark Knopfler), I have a '75-s Fender Stratocaster. Before the Deluxe, I had a 76' Twin Reverb, but its tone was too bright to pick the strings with the fingernail. I needed natural, warmer tone, and I found the Deluxe. I bought it from a collector who made all the reparation - so far.

The symptoms:I try to put into words: it's like the amp lost middle. The high tones cut my ears, the held lows get loose.
When I got the amp, the high/mid/low were egally. Sounded like an acoustic guitar. The tone was rich, natural, powerful. I loved that. (I' ve heard an another Deluxe and a Fender Pro amp since then, and they had the same nice, egal sound).
So, it's obvious, that something went wrong. The collector tired to fix it.

The reparation:The amp hadn't been used for 20 years. When I began to use it, the first problem showed up in a week: the phase shift preamp tube became mirophonic. We changed the General Electric tube to an RCA. But the tone was not the same. After few weeks I was very displeased with the change, so I asked for another tubes: no effect. The "digital piano" sound became more and more stronger.
The collector changed the power tubes (to JJ-electronic), and all the capacitors. The meallic, unequal sound continues.

The question:Is there any advice you can give me? It's very difficult to me to tell te problems in a foreign language, but I can send sound samples to prove the difference (I made records from the beginning).


It's very important to me, because my band records its firs album in may and june, and I don't want my guitar sound like a digital piano...

Thank you, guys.

[MWJB]

Replace the GE tube that you removed with one of exactly the same type. This appears to be the only tangible change that you have made.

[jmaf]

Hi, you should probably try the amp via another speaker cabinet, that'd be my first test. An amp can be an entirely different amp via another speaker cab.

Second, if this amp was stored for a long time, you probably were liking it with old tubes sound, a "brown sound", and you're probably disappointed because new tubes brought in more high end. A vintage Strat via a Deluxe will be a very bright sound indeed.

Thirdly, if it's not the cabinet or the new tubes, you may need a review of your circuit. Leaking caps are common(they can take the bias off and make grids positive, making it sound like a "Casio" digital piano, if I understand what you mean by digital piano correctly).

Your amp tech should have tons of tubes lying around to substitute and let you listen to each, so first step is to find a tech near you and go there with your amp and experiment.

[Fingerpicker]

Hi, thank you for the quick answer.

Anyway, I also wanted to try this change:
When the GE broke down, we tried several tubes but none of them brought the old sound.
Unfortunately the collector doesn't have the same type GE tube, so I had to use RCA and JJ.
Here in Hungary you hardly get vintage tubes. Do you think its's worth to risk ordering it via ebay?
Thx

[MWJB]

No, don't buy from e-bay. By from an internet vendor who will sell the tube with a warranty. The tube should be NOS (New Old Stock) previously unused apart from any quality testing. Pay no attention to so called readings from hand held tube testers.

[Fingerpicker]

Hi

We put the amp on an another Deluxe and Pro Amp's speaker cabinet, but the problem was the same.

The "brown sound" is a very good phrase for the original warm and natural tone. My firs suspicion was that the preamp tubes caused the change. But since then I put back the microphonic General Electric tube few times on tiral, but (apart from the noise) the tone were never the same old "brown sound". Now I use two old RCA and the original Fender preamp tube. The collector given substitutes (JJ and Tungsram) are too loud and bright.
I think I order a set of vintage GE tubes, to find out whether the preamp tubes cause the problem.

The collector is also a very good technician, he replaced and adjusted the power tubes, and replaced all of the capacitors too. So now leaking caps can't be the source of the problem.
The collector said he had done his best (so he run out of ideas), even measured all the part of the circuit, and found them OK.

The worst in all this case is, that I thought I've found the Holy Grail, and in a few weeks somehow this dream gone.

Has the Deluxe some common problem apart from tubes and capacitors? Is there anything that makes the amp sound metallic? Or maybe this is its normal tone, and the "brown sound" is special?

Anyhow, I order a set of GE tubes, and report the results.
One more question: is the General Electric tube OK, or is there any other type that the vintage "brown sound"-seekers prefer?

Thank you for your answer. Bye.

[Fingerpicker]

Hi

Thank you for the warning, I won't use ebay.
But I dont't know the other way at all: how can I find a trustful internet vendor? (What is this 'vendor' anyway?)
Have you ever bought tubes this way? Can you recommend a good address/site?
What is the method in this case: I order it in e-mail, and cash on delivery?
I don't understand this part: "so called readings from hand held tube testers". Would you please define it - because of my language handicap (you know, I'm hungarian).

Thanks, and sorry for my ignorance.

[Jazz P Bass]

I think that there ws too much work done to the amp.
You probably had a bad tube or somesuch fault.
But when the wholesale replacement of parts came on stage, that was the end of your tone.
A lot of times old power supply capacitors leak slightly & pull down the B+ voltage.
When new caps are put in all the voltages go up.
Now it is a different amp.
Maybe you could have your tech look at ways to slightly lower the B+ voltage.

[riz]

Bummer. I recapped and retubed my old deluxe and it sounds great. I'm running JJ output tubes no problem. Hope you find your problem--these are great amps, and if it's running right it should sound great almost no matter what. I'm surprised recapping the power supply didn't fix it. Sure this guy knows what he's doing?

[Fingerpicker]

Hi

Yes indeed, it would be better to make the modifications step by step. Mostly the power tube and capacitor replacement.
But these two changes didn't result pregnant difference in tone. It was as metallic after as it was before.
But this pulling down B+ voltage think makes me think. In this case I can't count on my tech - he insist on the original Fender values.
Do you know any ways to lower B+ voltage?
Thanks.

[Fingerpicker]

Hi

After all, my tech done a great job. The amp sounds better than the Twin or the Supersonic amps which I had before.
But it's not that warm, natural "brown sound" - as it was at the beginning. Now it sounds like a different amp.
I try to find out whether this actual state is normal or the old sound.

What kind of preamp tubes do you use?
Thanks.

[jmaf]

Fingerpicker, here are a few ideas, some have been suggested by others.

1) Reduce +B. Insert a power resistor after the first reservoir in order to cause sag.
2) Change the speaker. Go to a local store and test some speakers, some are way more brittle than others, it completely changes the amp.
3) Get NOS tubes as suggested above. But do know you probably need to lower your voltage or the tubes may fail, especially NOS.
4) Have the technician mod the amp, tone stack, etc...not recommended, I wouldn't change a stock Deluxe, really...

Hope this helps. Good luck.

[MWJB]

Use an American made NOS 5Y3 rectifier & rebias power tubes accordingly.

[riz]

Maybe what you are hearing is the renewed power supply. Others can make more educated comments on this topic than I, but perhaps you are one of those who miss the sound of the old inefficient filter caps--it should sound "tighter" now. I myself like a freshly capped old Fender. And, I wasn't trying to make disparaging comments about your tech, it does sound like he's trying to be there for you! I actually had a look in my amp the other day, I had to finally replace the trem roach with another salvaged one I had around (works great now!), and I was surprised to see V1-RCA, V2- usa tung-sol, G.E. 12at7 phase splitter. I just forgot about the tung-sol and G.E., I thought I had all RCAs in there. Mullard gz34 and JJ 6v6 round it out (I use a "whatever" tube for the trem). Maybe you can retain the sound you heard by experimenting with the rectifier, as suggested above. Mine is a '64 non-reverb, and is one of the greatest amps I've ever played. Yes, blackface Fenders are crisp and bright when running as intended. "Brown" is a description more often associated with earlier models.

[Fingerpicker]

Hi

I appreciate all of the answers, because they help to find the solution. So, I dont't think that your comment about my tech was offending.
Reading these B-voltage-lowering answers I realized: I need a new technician. My friend got me one, we'll meet next week, and begin with inserting a power resistor.
My Deluxe has a Miniwatt Gz34 rectifier. I decided not to replace it, because this tube provided the original sound - which I very much liked.
Thank you again for your answers. Bye.