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Thread: Traverser and Scatter winding desnity

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    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Traverser and Scatter winding desnity

    Assuming a Jason Lollar(ish) type winder with a traverser (e.g. non CNC winder), what would be reasonable layering density ranges for “Scatter” winding (I use the term scatter winding for lack of a better term in a controlled traverse environment). What I am asking is, if for example 100% perfect side-by-side layering were 156 TPL, what would be a reasonable general “rule of thumb” ranges for scatter winding (to yield a certain type of affect on tone if that’s a fair part of the question)? Would it be 40 – 80 TPL or something much tighter like 100 – 120 or 130 - 140 TPL, or over wound like 175 – 185 TPL?

    Just trying to cut down the learning (wasting materials) curve at least a little bit. As always, input and experiences shared are much appreciated.

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    Last edited by kayakerca; 10-12-2011 at 11:08 PM.
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    Jim. . .
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    Jim,

    My sense is that scatter-wound implies a much looser range with variability between say 15-30 tpl or 50 and 100 tpl. Laying down wire in neat, side-by side rows will increase self-capacitance between layers of wire and you'll end up with a darker sounding pickup. Hand wound pickup try to avoid this by randomly and frequently switching directions of the traverse resulting in a much looser coil that has more air inside each layer and where the wires are crossing at more oblique angles, not stacked right on top of each other and parallel from layer to layer. It's all voodoo to some extent so don't worry too much but try to get a sense of what you did each time and whether it sounded better or worse. Good luck

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    Member captcoolaid's Avatar
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    For my machine I do layers with a small scatter. Traverse forward at about every other turn and on the return it fills the gap. I do not use a cnc but not hand traversed either. I call it stack winding to a since. Roughly for 42 wire86 turns or so. Wait my counter counts in 2s so 160 or so per traverse. My machine is a bit different though. I run a Gorman Spin Winder. Best machine ever. Everything can be controlled on the fly and set real fast without stopping the machine.

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    Peace and Tone The Rain Mann

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    15 to 30 i would call scatter wound particularly if you have some slop in your traverser so it never actually repeats where the turns lay. 100 tpl is T top territory

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    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    If I'm doing the math correctly, a Strat pickup with an inside bobbin height of .4375 and 42 AWG @ .0028 (with insulation) would take 156 winds to fill a layer theoretically perfectly side-by-side. My traverser is from an oscillating fan. The fan motor on high speed turns at ~ 1,250 rpm with a 250:1 gear down ratio to the oscilator. This means the CAM will turn at ~ 5 rpm or ~ 10 tranverses per minute. Therefore, at full speed it takes (60 seconds / 10 traverses) 6 seconds to make one traverse. Looking for, say, a 30 tpl scatter wind scenario, that means (30 tpl / 6 seconds) 5 turns per second, which which translates to 300 rpm for the winder. It would therefore take ~ 27 minutes to put 8,000 winds on the bobbin. Double that for a 15 tpl scatter. It would appear that the limiting factor of my winder is the speed of the traverser as the fan motor that runs the traverser cannot be sped up. Ouch. . .

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    Jim. . .
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    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

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    I have run that same sort of traverser and cam for years,think youll find unless you make the cam EXACTLY right and match the speed exactly right its going to scatter wind regardless of TPL and you will have to occasionally go back in and fill spots etc.
    Think about it if its moving really slow- you cant get 1,000 tpl etc.
    if you want something you can set tpl then you have to use something else, its easier if its connected to the main drive so the ratio remains the same between the traverse and the bobbin speed but then that locks you into a certain amount of TPL which becomes less human and more machine like.....

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    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jason lollar View Post
    I have run that same sort of traverser and cam for years,think youll find unless you make the cam EXACTLY right and match the speed exactly right its going to scatter wind regardless of TPL and you will have to occasionally go back in and fill spots etc.
    Think about it if its moving really slow- you cant get 1,000 tpl etc.
    if you want something you can set tpl then you have to use something else, its easier if its connected to the main drive so the ratio remains the same between the traverse and the bobbin speed but then that locks you into a certain amount of TPL which becomes less human and more machine like.....
    Being a "little" anal about things and having too much time on my hands, I have a rheostat for each of the traverser motor and the winder motor. In addition to a turn counter, I also have a tachometer with sensors for both the winder and the transverer motors with a DPDT switch to move between them. Theory would be I could set the winder to a max of 1,300 rpm and traverser to a max of 5.12 rpm and any combination thereof. The thought is to be able to reproduce with reasonable consistency something that ends up sounding good to me. The wire guide should have very little slop as it is a true wire guide nozzle with an exit diameter of .3mm (4 X the diameter of 42 AWG). I have only to mount the traverser motor and wire the stuff in and I'm finished. The CAM was cut with a precision circle cutter from Delrin and the surface is smooth as a baby's bottom (hopefully the nozzle guide will reduce wind build up at each end as the traverse changes direction). I'm really trying to get a sense of where to start experimenting with tpl's, as I think the winder as it is set up, should give me a reasonable chance of reproducing things that work.

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    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
    VA3DEF
    ____________________________________________________
    In the immortal words of Dr. Johnny Fever, “When everyone is out to get you, paranoid is just good thinking.”

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