Differences between Alnico 2 and Demagnetized Alnico 5

[OFM]

Hi guys,

Last year i've bought some Alnico 5 magnets from Stewmac. Since I live in Chile, this was one of the few options I had to buy Alnico magnets.

They were shipped together in a plastic bag, so they obviously got partially demagnetized during the trip.

I told one of my customers about my demagnetized Alnicos, so we agreed to modify a Demarzio pickup with one of those magnets (unfortunatelly, the most popular aftermarket pickup brand in Chile).

The results were very good, we obtained a great vintage tone, with clarity, plenty of dynamics, similar to Alnico 2 pickups. My customer (and very good friend too) was very happy with the results.

I have the following question:

How close is a Demag-Alnico 5 to an Alnico 2?

If we read the same Gauss in both magnets, will they sound the same?

What about demag ceramics? One of the worst pickups i've tried and destroyed in my "Pickup-man" carreer were the "Ibanez PSND", which had a tiny ceramic mag which sounded terrible.

Greetings!
Ben

[WolfeMacleod]

If we read the same Gauss in both magnets, will they sound the same?

Ben

The answer is no. I can't tell you exactly why though, but something to do with the the magnets material properties.

[Possum]

differences...

This is where an LCR meter is useful. Alnico 5 has more cobalt and less nickel than alnico 2. The difference in metals effects differences in eddy currents in the magnet itself. Alnico 2 has more eddy currents and you can see this on the Extech or any LCR meter that works right with pickups. So yes you can demagnetize an alnico 5 and get a similar thing happening to alnico 2 since A2 has slightly less gauss but the A2 will always be darker sounding, smoother highs.
Here's a link to something I saved showing the contents of the different alnicos:
http://ur.pair.com/shrapnel/alnico%2...in%20brief.pdf

[OFM]

This is where an LCR meter is useful. Alnico 5 has more cobalt and less nickel than alnico 2. The difference in metals effects differences in eddy currents in the magnet itself. Alnico 2 has more eddy currents and you can see this on the Extech or any LCR meter that works right with pickups. So yes you can demagnetize an alnico 5 and get a similar thing happening to alnico 2 since A2 has slightly less gauss but the A2 will always be darker sounding, smoother highs.
Here's a link to something I saved showing the contents of the different alnicos:
http://ur.pair.com/shrapnel/alnico%2...in%20brief.pdf

Thanks a lot!

Everything is clearer right now, now I understand a couple of things about the sound of my pickups. Unfortulately I only can get Alnico 5 magnets to make experiments, but there's a possibility to travel to the States in the following weeks and surely i'll bring lots of magnets and pickup parts to Chile.

Maybe I can even visit someone if i'm travelling around, hehehe...

[NightWinder]

Yo, Hit me up, I'll make sure you go back with a feloney or 2. Felony is american lingo for a gold madalion......You'll have a good time!!! I promise

[corduroyew]

I've been in an ongoing argument about this for a while. I can hear the difference between A2's and degaussed A5's in strat style pickups. There are a few custom shop guys and independent luthiers that I have had the misfortune of meeting that tell me it’s impossible to hear a difference. It’s good to know that there are still people out there that are on my side of this one.

[DrStrangelove]

credit where due, cash in fist

Here's a link to something I saved showing the contents of the different alnicos:
http://ur.pair.com/shrapnel/alnico%2...in%20brief.pdf

Here's a link to the original that I created showing the contents of the different alnicos:
http://www.salvarsan.org/content/alnico.html

It even has a nice link to a local copy of Standard Specifications for Permanent Magnetic Materials (MMPA-0100-00)

http://www.salvarsan.org/download/0100-00.pdf

-drh

[David Schwab]

What about demag ceramics?

You can't easily demagnetize ceramic magnets.

[DrStrangelove]

Hci

You can't easily demagnetize ceramic magnets.

Yup. It takes some coercing.

-drh

[Spence]

Does A5 degaussed to A3 levels sound like A3? No.
Each grade of AlNiCo has a different composition of nickel, cobalt, copper,aluminium, iron etc...

A5 can never sound like A2. Not ever.

[David Schwab]

I've been in an ongoing argument about this for a while. I can hear the difference between A2's and degaussed A5's in strat style pickups.

You aren't alone.

Jason Lollar said the same thing:

Alnico 5 is stronger than Alnico 2, but a lot of people overlook the fact that the difference in the composition of magnetic material also has an effect on “inductance.” If the level of magnetism were the same between the Alnico 2 and 5, by partially discharging the 5 to make it the same strength as the Alnico 2 you would still hear a difference between the coils due to the makeup of the materials.

It's a good interview. You can find it on his site here (PDF)

[OFM]

You can't easily demagnetize ceramic magnets.

I agree... is not easy...

I spent a few minutes with a couple of Neo magnets and sucesfully demagnetized a Ceramic magnet. But it wasn't wasy to hold the magnet...

...the problem was I couldn't remagnetize it again... hehehehe...

(I have plenty of cheap ceramic magnets, anyway)

[OFM]

Thank a lot for the answers, now everything's clearer...

I found the demag A5 pickups a bit brighter than the others A2 pickups I had, but the pickups themselves were very different. One had more turns and a nickel cover and the other not, so making a comparision would be a complete nonsense.

One of the local luthiers here in Chile (he's Argentinian, but lives in Chile) made a great Test guitar, which allows to compare 2 pickups with the same height and position (he used a rail system). If I buy some Alnico 2 mags, i'll borrow his guitar and make the test with 2 humbuckers.

Thanks a lot guys,

Greetings,
Ben

[Zhangliqun]

I found the demag A5 pickups a bit brighter than the others A2 pickups I had, but the pickups themselves were very different.

That sounds about right in my experience. A lot also depends on how much you degauss the 5, but to me "PDA5" sounds like A2 with a bit more upper-mid grind and bass. It never quite sounds as flat and even on the EQ curve as A2.

[NightWinder]

Hell no, in fact, I just released a high ohmer 17.8k, using an A3. In fact, the original prototype was with A3. The Lowend was'nt as tight as I hoped, so I switched to A5 degaussed, and fully charged w/ a degauss bump. They are similar in tone, but the A5 totally restricted the Harmonic structure, and was quite different in that area. The A3 just screamed harmonics everywhere, and had that nasty snarling lowmid thump and just grinded your fact apart with ease. The A5 tightended everything up, but was'nt the same. I since reworked the Offset, A3 and now it blasphemous!! Perfect tight lows, and the harmonic structure was there again. Its cool that you can push the amp harder too, as It is not as loud either.
I know it may be a little off topic, with the A2 descusion. Spence you were right in the similaritys.......