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Thread: Crate Stealth 50 combo - self inflicted issue

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    Unhappy Crate Stealth 50 combo - self inflicted issue

    Hey all; first post and I hope someone can point me in the right direction.

    I know there is a stigma about Crate amps but the Stealth 50 has treated me pretty well. I really like it and it was the only good amp I had until I screwed around with it.

    Long story short; I was hoping to replace some non-polar electrolytic caps for polyester film ones for some clearer sound. When I wired the transformer back up; I mis-wired an orange and red wire back to the board. Turn the amp on; very audible hissing noise; pop; power off. Opened everything back up and realized my mistake; put the cables back where they should have been and tried to turn it on. No go. Checked the main fuse and it was blown. Replaced the fuse and turned it on. I get the power LED; tubes filaments turn on; no sound out of any channel. No sound out of the line out. When I plugged the effects loop send into the input of a friends amp, I get some hissing instead of silence but no signal.

    One of the red transformer wires that should wire up to J21 or J22 were wired to J23 or J24 where the orange wires should connect; and the orange wire was wired onto the jumper where the red wire should have been. As it was late and I was worried that I just destroyed my amp I did not make not of which wires had crossed; and for that too I am a fool.

    There is nothing visibly wrong on the board; no scorch marks; no blown caps... I replaced the polyester film caps I got with the ones that were originally on the board and that didn't change anything.

    Since I am not even getting sound out of the line out; I do not think that I fried the output transformer; but I am wondering what I have broken... Have I fried an IC or a transistor; even all of them?

    If anyone can point me in the right direction for testing stuff; I would be forever grateful. I am not in a good financial situation where I can buy a new amp.

    I have attached the schematic for the stealth 50 in case anyone is curious.
    GT-50H,_50_Schematics.pdf

    I guess if nothing else I am wondering if I have irreversibly killed this amp and I should start saving for a new one, or if anyone on the forum thinks it is salvageable.

    Thanks for your help,
    Will

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    The first thing to do is see if the power transformer is good.
    Disconnect the Red/Green/Red wires. (label them) This is the 400 volt winding.
    Disconnect the Orange/Orange winding. This is the 40 volt winding.
    I would try to get a Volt ac reading off of each winding.
    Red(1) to Green. Red(2) to Green. And Red to Red.
    Any Red to Green will be half the voltage of Red to Red.
    If that checks out, move on to the Orange/ Orange winding.(35-40 Vac)
    If that checks out, leave them disconnected & do the test points on the Blue (16 volt) winding.
    If all of that checks then we find where it got toasted.

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    Red 1/green: 153
    Red 2/green: 153
    Red 1/Red 2: 310
    Orange/Orange: 88
    Blue 1/Blue-White: 15
    Blue 2/Blue-White: 15
    Blue 1/Blue 2: 30

    Seems a little off to me?

    Thanks

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Not to be condescending... But have you checked F2? You just said you checked the main fuse. Transformers usually work or they don't. I would guess you have a power supply problem. I would be checking the dc out of those bridge rectifiers after reconnecting the PT. Then check the output of those regulators.

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    Thanks for the input olddawg; I should have mentioned everything I checked. F2 is good; voltage coming out of the diode/rectifier circuits seems to be spot on when checked with a voltmeter. To be certain; I just replaced F2 and there was no change; so I put the original back in. I have also attempted to trace back into the circuit a ways with my multimeter; everything seems to be good on the orange/bias circuit back to the power tubes I am thinking that some component or something in the signal path has failed.... Maybe one of the FETs?

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Have you plugged something into the main amp in or effects return? An iPod will do, or a headphone output from anything. That will tell you if the output stage is working or not. You have already determined that the preamp has no output. If the power amp has no output as well it is something common to both. If it works the problem is related to the preamp.

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    Last edited by olddawg; 10-27-2012 at 06:02 AM.

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    Just plugged my guitar into a high gain pedal and into the effects loop return. No sound out of the amp on any channel; even with all the knobs all the way up. Not even that ominous hiss of an amp turned up all the way while it is amplifying silence...

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Still sounds like power supply. Check your high voltage B+. Be careful. Tube amps can kill you. If you do not know how to do it safely, take it to a tech. Also check your +\- 16v rail voltages, 5v supply, etc.

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    Thanks for the advice; I know tube amps can kill me; wiring breakers can kill me; just about anything can kill you if you aren't careful. 16v seems to be good across the IC1 2 and 3, B+ is good at 420 across all power tubes. Where in the circuit is there 5V, maybe I am missing it...

    After looking at the schematic again; the line out is past my output transformer... Possibly it is blown? If I recall the only way to check would be to swap in another transformer...

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billshire View Post
    Thanks for the advice; I know tube amps can kill me; wiring breakers can kill me; just about anything can kill you if you aren't careful. 16v seems to be good across the IC1 2 and 3, B+ is good at 420 across all power tubes. Where in the circuit is there 5V, maybe I am missing it...

    After looking at the schematic again; the line out is past my output transformer... Possibly it is blown? If I recall the only way to check would be to swap in another transformer...
    Many line outs are speaker output run through a voltage divider. This is so when you DI it you get the character of the whole amp. The effects send should be a pre-out. If you look at the power supply section of your schematic on the right you have all of your high voltage nodes. On your left you have all of your regulated low voyage supplies. After the bridge rectifier there are a bunch of 3 pin regulators. Make sure that both the + and - 16v rails are there. The 5v supply is labeled and just above that. If all of the supplies are good you need to put a signal source on the input (Ipod or something) and start signal tracing. A scope helps. If you don't have a scope you can make a signal tracer out if a small amplifier and a probe with a coupling cap.

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    Thanks much for the thought and I will do that in the morning but for now it is 2AM where I am and I am going to sleep. I'll update this tomorrow with the results.

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    Maybe I'm missing something here or looking at the wrong schematic, but I don't see any low voltage regulators or a 5 volt supply. The low voltage supplies are Zener regulated.

    This amp is mainly tube, but there are a lot of solid state elements in the signal path, so both power supplies are are important. As Olddawg suggested, check all of the supplies and make sure that they are all working. Once that is done, start with the power amp and speaker and then work your way forward to the inputs.

    Is the speaker okay? Is it plugged into the correct jack? Is the impedance switch set correctly? Can you hear anything from the speaker, hiss, noise? Have you tested the output transformer for basic continuity of primaries and secondaries?

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    Speaker/Impedance/Correct Jack is all fine. Just did some basic resistance testing on the output transformer and it seems healthy... I hear nothing from the speaker; no hiss, no noise, nothing. Absolutely silent. I will get something together to test signal through the circuit; but for now I have to run errands. I'll be back later and get another update on here. Thanks again for the guidance.

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    So I put together a signal trace and I'm using it to step through the system/ On the clean channel; I am able to trace the signal up to the reverb send J12. I then get nothing out of j13, 14 or 15 and nothing of the clean signal farther down the system. Tracing the distortion channel, I get it going into IC1 but nothing after anywhere.

    Might be some blown ICs that I have to replace?

    Also; should I be getting any signal past the reverb tank? the other half of IC3 is there and I am not getting any signal past that....

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    Last edited by Billshire; 10-28-2012 at 03:10 AM. Reason: also; reverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billshire View Post
    So I put together a signal trace and I'm using it to step through the system/ On the clean channel; I am able to trace the signal up to the reverb send J12. I then get nothing...
    If the signal is getting to the reverb driver chip it should also be getting to the input of IC2B. If it stops there, then start by replacing IC2.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 52 Bill View Post
    If the signal is getting to the reverb driver chip it should also be getting to the input of IC2B. If it stops there, then start by replacing IC2.
    You have no output when you drive the power amp via the effects return. Something is also affecting the power amp. Make sure the power supplies are there on those ICs.

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    power is getting to all ICs. Replaced IC1 and 2; I seem to be getting even less signal through to the reverb send and nothing afterwards still. This is all completely frustrating at this point in time and I may just sit on it or leave it as a project, or build some other smaller amp out of the parts... That or take it to some tech to fix... I don't know.

    Any votes on what to do?

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billshire View Post
    Any votes on what to do?
    This amp is full of things that can cause the symptoms that you have. Making things even harder is the fact that there are both tube and solid state elements in the signal path. Besides the ICs, if any of the opto isolators or the fets is bad, it will also kill the signal.

    I suggested to start at the power amp and work forward because at least from the speaker to the input of the power amp the circuit is all tube. Once the basic tube power supply is working then you can move on to the solid state elements.

    Have you tested the tube power supply including all of the different nodes?

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billshire View Post
    power is getting to all ICs. Replaced IC1 and 2; I seem to be getting even less signal through to the reverb send and nothing afterwards still. This is all completely frustrating at this point in time and I may just sit on it or leave it as a project, or build some other smaller amp out of the parts... That or take it to some tech to fix... I don't know.

    Any votes on what to do?
    I would exercise some patience. Maybe put it aside for a day and look at it with fresh eyes. Are you sure you have +16vdc on pin 8 and -16vdc on pin 4 of the IC? Do you have signal on pin V1A coming from the volume pot with a signal source on the input? Does it vary with the volume pot? If it does go to the next stage. If it doesn't find out why. Randomly replacing parts will just cause more problems. Don't guess.

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    Last edited by olddawg; 10-28-2012 at 11:02 PM.

  20. #20
    Noodle of Reality Steve Conner's Avatar
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    By switching the red and orange wires, you may well have put 400V onto the power rails of the solid-state circuitry. This could have blown just about every IC in the unit.

    If you're lucky it will simply have blown the filter caps or the dropping resistors in the Zener regulator section.

    In any case, I'd be tracing the low voltage supply rails, not the signal.

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    Thanks all for the advice. I slept on it, waited and thought. I'm going to continue screwing around with this till it works. I was able to replace IC1 and 2 with another opamp which does not sound so good it appears; BUT I was able to get distortion signal all the way to my effects loop send. Perhaps I have blown a transistor or the clean signal is just failing somewhere else that I have to diagnose, but when I am running through the distortion channel, I get signal all the way to the power tubes. I am then not getting anything out of my output transformer. I think that I have shorted/fried my output transformer and I will need a new one. I am in the process of testing it, but I will be ordering a replacement soon I guess.

    I want to say thank you again for everyone's help as this has been an expensive lesson learned. Not as expensive as college, but expensive. With any luck I will be able to replace a few ICs and an output transformer, maybe a transistor or ten and have a working amp.

    I'll probably have a reply back with what the output transformer is looking like soon...

    In the meantime a very good friend has loaned me an amplifier so that I am not without while I get mine fixed.

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  22. #22
    Don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    Before even thinking about the OT, what kind of DC voltages do you have on pins 3 and 4 of the power tubes? Pins 1 and 6 of the phase splitter (V3)? The signal going to the power tubes needs to be fairly big. I would suggest sticking with the power amp for now and applying signal at the FX return jack. You will need to verify U4 is ok.

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    so on the distortion channel, I get signal from the main input through to the power tubes. Pins 3 and 4 on the power tubes have about 400v at them. pins 1 and 6 of V3 have about 400V and 600V respectively.

    Doing a signal trace around the power tubes, I get lots of signal through pin 5; no signal through anything else really. There is extremely faint signal that can be heard on pins 6, 7 and 8, but that may just be stray electrons in the tubes or due to my poorly shielded signal trace probe. There is absolutely no signal through at pins 1, 2, 3 and 4. I guess that is bad... There should be loads of signal at pin 3 on the power tubes.

    Basic continuity tests of the output transformer seem to check out. I do not have a spare 6.3v filament transformer for more advanced testing.

    Have I fried my power tubes? They do not seem to be visibly bad, but they are the original old Hot Rod tubes that came with it and are mostly blacked out.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billshire View Post
    pins 1 and 6 of V3 have about 400V and 600V respectively.
    These readings must be wrong, recheck when you have a chance. There is no 600 volt supply, and the 400 volts should be lower if the tube was actually drawing current.

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    Sorry; it must have been late and I was tired.

    Pin 1 has 192v and pin 6 has 222v

    Possibly my multimeter was not on the right setting, sorry for the erroneous info...

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  26. #26
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    That looks better
    What I like to do is remove the output tubes & then inject a signal into the front end of the amp (input jack)
    Then I'll go straight to the grid pin of the output tubes. (pin 5 in this case)
    At this point, while monitoring the Vac on pin 5, turn up the volume on the preamp.
    You should get a nice healthy signal on the grids.
    (Roughly 30-40 Vac for 2 6L6, double for 4)
    If you do not have that the output tubes will not work.
    If you do have the Vac then you can install load & the tubes.
    If you still have nothing on the output, the tubes or the OT is suspect.
    For testing the tubes, you can try one tube at a time (some amps this is not so, notably certain Peavey's where the heaters are in series).
    Even one tube should put some signal on a good OT.
    Still nothing, you have known good tubes, the OT is bad.

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    I have checked pin 5 for signal with the tubes installed and there is a very healthy signal there.

    While I have signal on pin 5 with the tubes installed, there is absolutely no signal on pin 3 of any power tube.

    From what I understand of pentodes, the voltage must be higher at the anode than at the screen grid; which I can check on when I get home. I suppose if something happened and shorted some resistor, there could be more voltage on the screen grid and preventing signal from flowing to the anode, but there is no signal at pin 4 either.

    I can try the output tubes in pairs, but not individually.

    A bad OT wouldn't have nixed the signal at pin 3 would it? Since I was going to get some anyway, I ordered new output tubes, they should be here by Saturday.

    The OT passed all the basic continuity tests. I'll continue to troubleshoot as possible.

    Sounds like bad power tubes?

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  28. #28
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Do you even have a high voltage at the screen pins?
    Does Pin 8 (cathode) deffinitely connect to ground?
    As Steve Connor so politely pointed out to me,() if the screen resistor is open the tube will not conduct a signal.
    Also, if the cathode is not grounded, the tube will not conduct at all.
    On to the OT.
    With the output tubes removed & the power supply drained, what resistance do you read on the OT primary.
    (Red to Blue/ Red to Brown/ Blue to Brown.)
    A continuity check is not enough.
    The secondary is going to read less than an ohm.
    Keep in mind it is a transformer.
    Resistance readings tell you one thing.
    You will need a low voltage ac source to check it further.

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    I know pin 4 has voltage but I am going to check it to see if it has higher voltage than the anode... I'll get on your suggestion as soon as I can.

    Thanks.

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    Sorry to ask, but you do have heaters lit up at the power tubes? You said the filaments were lit, but I wanted to double check on the power tubes specifically.

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    No need to be sorry. All filaments are lit in all tubes.

    Output tubes:

    DC@pin3 359

    DC@pin4 351

    Resistance across OT Primary

    blue-red 88
    brown-red 88
    blue-brown 172

    I've got some things to do for now but I'll be back at it later.

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  32. #32
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Are you sure you didn't burn open a ground trace when you reversed the wiring?

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    I never checked and that is what it was! What a fool I have been... Open circuit where there should be a ground. Fixed it and my amp is working!

    XD

    Thanks everyone for your help; I guess I'll just update the thread again and let you all know if those new power tubes I ordered sound any better than what is in there :P

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  34. #34
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    And the open circuit to ground connection was which one???

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