JJ 6L6GCs... WTF?

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I have gone through no less then 16 "matched pairs" and a half dozen "matched quads" of new JJ 6L6GCs and for some reason, many are 100% unusable, noisy microphonic garbage....many are very "close" to unusable and the other noisy ones are just too damn noisy to feel good about letting them go... all because of mechanical microphonic noise... they simply vibrate and ring like a buzzy bell with any volume and lower frequencies.

This sound is not coming through the speaker(s) but you can hear the tubes singing away, plain as day... go to the back of the amp and it is downright annoying!!
The new amps with those tubes... or those amp repairs using those tubes are unsellable.

A bad batch over the last few months? Have JJ power tubes just turned into crap or what?

My email from the vendor (CE Dist) basically says "tough titty".... if they work right and meet design parameters, there is no warranty for mechanical microphonics. WHAT!!?


I'm about to kill my alliance with JJ......

Comments please.....

[bob p]

Is this a problem with JJ or with CE Distribution?

I think this says more about the distributor than the manufacturer. I've had no problems with JJ 6L6 in the past, though I haven't purchased any in several months. Is this just a problem with CE distribution, or are other vendors using the same lame excuses for failure to warrant new production inventory?

Regardless of the tube brand, I am very concerned about the piss-poor attitude about warranty that I've heard people attribute recently to CE Distribution. I have been contacted by Tony in the sales department twice this month about putting together a stocking tube order. If they're telling you that they won't stand behind microphonic tubes, then I will ask him about it on our next call. I'll tell him that this would be concerning enough for me to place my order with another vendor.

Interestingly, they've got a blowout sale on the EL34-EH this month, any quantity for $10. That's a really tempting price, but after hearing their crappy policy about warranting new tubes, I am pausing to consider whether this $10 sale might just be an effort to unload bad stock and stick customers with their microphonic garbage.

I'm reluctant to make decisions based upon internet hearsay. I'd like to see the full content of your email.

[big_teee]

I think this says more about the distributor than the manufacturer. I've had no problems with JJ 6L6 in the past, though I haven't purchased any in several months. Is this just a problem with CE distribution, or are other vendors using the same lame excuses for failure to warrant new production inventory?

Regardless of the tube brand, I am very concerned about the piss-poor attitude about warranty that I've heard people attribute recently to CE Distribution. I have been contacted by Tony in the sales department twice this month about putting together a stocking tube order. If they're telling you that they won't stand behind microphonic tubes, then I will ask him about it on our next call. I'll tell him that this would be concerning enough for me to place my order with another vendor.

Interestingly, they've got a blowout sale on the EL34-EH this month, any quantity for $10. That's a really tempting price, but after hearing their crappy policy about warranting new tubes, I am pausing to consider whether this $10 sale might just be an effort to unload bad stock and stick customers with their microphonic garbage.

I'm reluctant to make decisions based upon internet hearsay. I'd like to see the full content of your email.

FWIW: The EL34H is thin sounding in my amps.(Strictly My Opinion)
It's the only EL34 that I've heard much negative feedback on.
The JJ E34L, and the JJ KT77 Both sounded much richer sounding IMO.
Sorry to hear that Bruce is having the bad luck with the JJ 6L6s.
T

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

...

I'm reluctant to make decisions based upon internet hearsay. I'd like to see the full content of your email.

With respect to my question to CE Dist about defective tubes, they will replace or remunerate with an RMA in less then 90 days...but this last line, (not from Tony) ... is the one bugged me the most:

"Please note that microphonics are not something we test for and do not consider a defect as it is very subjective."

Anyhow, this is not the first time I have had crummy tubes from a couple vendors so I decided to cancel out of the CE Dist, JJ6L6GC order and am going to try a few 6L6WXT+ tubes from New Sensor and see how they go.

I guess the trick is to close down for a half a day, test every damn tube I buy, eat the return shipping costs and send them back instantly when I deem them defective... which has become FREQUENTLY!

[Jazz P Bass]

I have had good luck with the Sovtek 6L6WXT tubes.
Other than the fact that most of the ones I got run 'Hot' right out of the box. (bias wise)

[bob p]

"Please note that microphonics are not something we test for and do not consider a defect as it is very subjective."

Well, I guess that means that you can't exchange for defective, in which case you should be entitled to free return shipping and 100% credit. Instead, you just have to eat the return shipping and do a general return, which is subject to a restocking fee. That sucks, but it's better than eating the crappy tubes.

I guess that you are forced into gang-testing upon receipt, which is decidedly inconvenient.

Would be interesting in hearing your experiences with the WXT+.

[Chuck H]

I guess the trick is to close down for a half a day, test every damn tube I buy, eat the return shipping costs and send them back instantly when I deem them defective... which has become FREQUENTLY!

Couldn't have said it better myself!.. I made a similar comment regarding tube vendor policy about a week ago. I think you even read it. My trouble was with thetubestore and the JJ el34's I bought from them. I'm not happy your suffering, but I'm glad to be in good company.

[Chuck H]

FWIW there was a post in one of my threads where Stan (km6xz) eludes that the Chinese tubes he vendors are bought in bulk and tested by him or his people before distribution. And the failure rate is fairly low. I don't know if that's meant to imply that the bulk purchases from China have a lower failure rate than our small purchases from vendors. But that is the context in which he brought it up. I know the Chinese tubes don't last quite as long, feed the horrible Chinese manufacturing machine and are made with almost no environmental considerations... But they cost less, fail less and sound just fine IME. And if they work... At least a guy can get back to work making amps, right? I don't want to rub any ones personal credo against the grain. But we all have a job to do. And we need to match our competitors tactics if we are to remain competitive. Unless, as perhaps applies to Mission Amps, the reputation commands a higher price and such things as Chinese tubes would be considered "bad form".?.

And, FWIW, I don't buy any Chinese tubes other than the occasional Shuguang 12ax7. NOS is too expensive and the Russian 12ax7's can't handle high heater to cathode differentials like cathode follower circuits. So it's just a matter of getting the job done. Also, FWIW, my failure experience with Chinese preamp tubes bought from vendors is about 10%. Russian tubes are at about 30%. But this is JMHE.

[blindboybenton]

Well here in the uk we only really have 2 supplier of tubes. This is ofcourse excluding Shitbay! I was a lover about a year ago of all things JJ.This is due to price. But ive found myself moving away from JJ's and using Sovtek EL34s or 6L6's or Electro Harmonixs. As i only play bass and my hearing is pretty usless these days i dont notice any differents in the tone. But i do notice that a set of tubes that have been in one amp for 6mths -18mths that are still good and well matched. That for me says Much more. When i quote my customers for a new set of tubes i give them a price for whats in stock or what they had in the amp before.

So far here I aint had any complaints from customers or other tech's in the uk about microponic JJ's

BBB

[km6xz]

Chuck, I was referring to a fairly low drop out rate considering they are bulk and only outgoing tested and not ranked by any parameter when I get them in a crate. 5-8% are deemed not within range of what a real 12AX7 would test at based on the RCA 1959 charts. They might still be useful in something but not as a plug in replacement for a NOS 12AX7. Far less than 1% are DOA.
I have been getting other tubes from Sovet Tech here in St Petersburg and have had a rash of heavily microphonic power tubes [labeled EH] and 12AX7[also EH] that have low gain or dead on one side. They are different tubes than the Shuguang by construction and materials but generally work well in amp from past experience.
I think the only way to lower the hassle of bad tubes impacting customer relations or shop efficiency is find a distributor that you trust to take testing seriously and having a reasonable return policy. When I had my shop that was high volume and a lot of valued well known clients, I never really had to worry much about this since we had Ruby/Magic Parts practically in the neighborhood and knew they were tested and if a failure occurred within a normal period, they were replaced. We supplied a lot of useful feedback to Tom on QC and performance data and even took care of his custom test jigs so knew what a rating value meant. Find a distributor, a small one who will take your account seriously and agree at the beginning of the terms and priorities, and stick with them, help them refine their testing or product offerings.
Everyone can get the same tubes, but the differences in labels is in the value added by the rebrander.
I found it easiest and most effective to develop close relationships with both suppliers and clients. The clients were a mix of manufacturers and end users. Much of the fast growth of the company was due to those close relationships with the manufacturers, who often turned to us for technical and use information. Having lots of partners as opposed to competing enemies really turned into a win win situation Most shops have firm and often negative views on manufacturers possibly from low reimbursement rates or denied claims but getting to know their situation and their problems went a long ways in making the relationships positive and profitable. The same with customers, taking the view from their side of the relationship really helped create policies and services that were enthusiastically received. I hear so many shop owners complain about how no one understands them, the manufacturers and the customers do not appreciate them and do not know what problems they are facing. The very isolated island surrounded by idiots sort of thinking is the source of creating bad policies and slower growth/lower profitability.
So, find a willing, small flexible distributor who will discuss your and his issues and come to some sort of agreement. Set specific goals like failure rate you can tolerate versus price you can accept. CE does not care about you and has developed a feeling within you that is negative. That is their business model and it is not going to change unless they think someone else is taking their business. They are only thinking of their concerns so you having a problem is a non-issue.
Find someone who will make it their issue. But you have to meet them half way. Be more flexible in min quantity or in pricing or whatever also consider their problems and you will have a loyal supplier. How much more would you pay to get 99% plug-in replacement performance? 95%? 90%? How much more efficient the shop will be if you do not need to speed hours every week incoming testing? Calculate the benefits and loses not just in price but in freer time for example to spend with clients or other real world business enhancement activities.
You might find that the cost is too high, or higher than the cost of hiring and equipping a incoming test person if you are doing high volume. But probably not. A buck a tube increase for peace of mind and fewer returns is worth how much to you?
I did not seek out the cheapest price, but the most profitable use of my time and the total shop and customer experience. Doing that we were able to keep a low shop price when others were complaining about $65/hour reimbursement rate as being too low, I was suggesting it was too high in that it prompted the companies to restrict time and be more critical of claims due to the adversarial relationship that developed.
Maybe a $1 increase will produce more satisfied customers in fewer returns for premature failure in tubes.
Returns are the most expensive but effective form of advertising. A return costs in customer opinion, in actual out of pocket costs, lost productivity, and gets around 10 times faster and further than a positive referral.
Every tech should be encouraged to think of return reduction as a primary responsibility. It is assumed they have the technical chops(or are in a training program with you, or they have no right to be touching other people's gear and should not be on your payroll) so getting it working is not an issue but keeping it working should be. And, no, that does not involve shotgunning or gouging or other signs of incompetence or unethical business.
So you have options, continuing to deal with CE is one of them but not the best option or even a good option.

[big_teee]

I have had good luck with the Sovtek 6L6WXT tubes.
Other than the fact that most of the ones I got run 'Hot' right out of the box. (bias wise)

I too like the 6L6WXTs.
If your not a dealer, they are on sale at Tubedepot for under $30 for a matched pair.
If you are a dealer you may can already buy them cheaper than that.
I also like the tall bottle TADs, but they cost more than the WXTs.
T

[überfuzz]

I had similar experience some 10 years ago. I bought 6 ECC83 JJs. I seem to remember getting 2 that actually worked. The vendor was ok with it and let me change until I got 6 working tubes. I think I vent back with bad ones 3 times. Quite frustrating, made me shy away from JJ all together. Nice of you to keep them from customers!!!

[jbltwin1]

I know we're not going to start a vendor bash or anything here but I have YET to get any dead JJ's through Eurotubes. I keep 6L6GC's and E34L's here and haven't had any failures. True, I don't go through hundreds but still, it's my stock tube. I have only had one preamp tube take a tumble, and of course, it was in one of my OWN amps. Other than that, they've been great. Mike.

[big_teee]

I know we're not going to start a vendor bash or anything here but I have YET to get any dead JJ's through Eurotubes. I keep 6L6GC's and E34L's here and haven't had any failures. True, I don't go through hundreds but still, it's my stock tube. I have only had one preamp tube take a tumble, and of course, it was in one of my OWN amps. Other than that, they've been great. Mike.

EURO may sell great tubes, but I hope they don't design websites for a living.
I got dizzy just trying to find the different tubes.
TubeDepots site is much easier!
Welcome to TubeDepot.com!
T

[Mick Bailey]

I've found the same problem with rattling JJ 6L6 and EL34s. I've given up on this brand for the time being. I can't let an amp out with a worse problem than it came in with. In a studio situation the rattle makes an amp unuseable. I've also found that they become microphonic much quicker when they start out with a mechanical rattle, which figures if the components are loose to begin with.