Interest in Manual Pickup Winders

[Hugh Evans]

My usual focus is on CNC, and since my company focuses most of its energy on designing and building guitars we've teamed up with another local company that makes pickups and amplifiers. Rather than undercut a business partner we've elected to make a very high end CNC winder for them exclusively, and with a requested price cap of $2k it's going to be amazing. Pictures will definitely be posted... But there are no plans to offer such a winder to the public in the foreseeable future. These guys will be making all of the standard pickups for our guitars unless another brand is requested specifically, and even then we will most likely encourage them to try ours first and supply replacements if they aren't satisfied. On to the purpose of this post:

Without naming names, when I look at manual pickup winders that are available through big suppliers such as Stew-Mac I find shockingly high prices even for the most basic models. Obviously, to make a profit some mark-up is to be expected. I've been discussing the possibility of making some really nice manually fed pickup winders with my business partner, and we feel confident that there is room for profit while offering a superior product. There shouldn't be articles all over the web about motors failing on a winder that costs $350 and features a basic LCD counter and no foot pedal speed control. Here's what I'm considering for the feature set:

*9"x9" T-slot extruded aluminum base 1" thick. It's sturdy, easy to assemble, allows for easy future expansion, and it can be conveniently fastened down to a surface/bench with carriage bolts that slide right into the slots.

*Bi-polar stepper motor coupled directly to the drive shaft. Not only are steppers easy to control and capable of rotating both clockwise and counterclockwise, they are also very reliable and allow the end users to more readily upgrade to computer control in the future should they so desire. Maximum speeds would likely be in the 1500 RPM range, and a direct geared coupling may be considered if advantageous

*Either an OLED or backlit high contrast monochrome LCD display. This would handle important information such as a turn counter, RPM, direction of rotation, and possibly more. It will most likely be a 16x2 display, which means two lines of 16 characters.

*Arduino to handle control of the motor and output data to the display. All code would be maintained as open source, thus allowing for modifications and future upgrades such as implementing a stepper motor for control of traversing or tension.

*Foot pedal speed control plus start/stop. This would most likely be made from a wah/volume pedal shell because, although we could make our own from scratch, I would rather over-build. Alternatives are being considered such as a handheld controller with a stick not unlike those found on a modern video game console controller. The handheld concept would lend itself nicely to anyone who upgrades the system so that speed as well as traversing could be controlled manually... essentially a hands-off hand-wound pickup.

*Electronics enclosure. I haven't shopped enough or considered fabrication thoroughly enough to say exactly what would be used. The requirements are functionality/durability, ease of access for maintenance (software upgrades, modifications, and repair... in case someone drives a truck over it and you need to remove what's left of the truck to prevent malfunctions), and pleasant appearance. Leading candidates include die cast aluminum, deep drawn aluminum, and custom made fiberglass.

*Linear rail with stops. I have a few ideas to make setting the stops a bit more intuitive that other winders I've seen. Nothing fancy, probably just some nicely polished stainless steel

*Fan/ventilation system to keep everything from the arduino to the motor nice and cool. Thermal failure is just bad product design.

If you have any ideas or special requests for features this is the time to bring them up. Target price for complete units is between $250 and $350 plus shipping. 100% made in the US with top quality components and probably a limited lifetime warranty (non-transferable, but perhaps guaranteeing all original components to be free of defects.) I don't want people to be afraid to modify it to suit their needs, and at the same time want them to feel confident that it is a top-notch machine that we stand behind 100%.

One last thing: before anyone brings up the low cost CNC winder I discussed a few months ago keep in mind what I described was a completely different animal. It was all about minimalism and basic functionality. The general concept was to provide the structure, stepper motors, motion systems, and plugs that would connect everything to the external power supply and controller. If someone wanted to use such a CNC winder, did not have an appropriate power supply, stepper controller boards, computer, and/or software: They would need to spend hundreds of dollars to have it up and running. It could still be accomplished for between $500 and $1000 rather easily. The machine I have proposed here will be comprised of the highest quality components available, elegant in its simplicity, and ready to plug in an use right out of the box.

I look forward to your responses, and hope that this design will see the light of day. Given sufficient interest we plan to initiate a kickstarter campaign to lower the cost by increasing production volume of the initial run... So early adopters will have a chance to save a few bucks. A couple of prototypes might be loaned around for some prominent members of this forum to evaluate and post their impressions. That way people can feel more confident in the quality of the product and the design can be refined if necessary before the first production units ship.

[kayakerca]

If you have any ideas or special requests for features this is the time to bring them up. Target price for complete units is between $250 and $350 plus shipping.

The $250 - $350 price point would be very fair for the quality components of the hand guided CNC winder your are describing. Would definitely appear to be superior to the units you are comparing it to which range from $350 - $550 area. However, it may be tough competing with the incumbent. They have a proven track record and a solid distribution network (e.g. the Stewmac's of the world) and that means a lot when it comes to selling a product.

If someone wanted . . . a CNC winder. . . [stuff omitted] . . . It could still be accomplished for between $500 and $1000 rather easily. The machine I have proposed here will be comprised of the highest quality components available, elegant in its simplicity, and ready to plug in an use right out of the box.

In my (newbie/hobbyist) opinion, a full CNC winder that runs "right out of the box" in the price range you indicate would probably be the better direction from a business perspective. To my understanding and research, there is no product in that space at that price, therefore no real competition. If I were in the market for a winder and had the option of, say, a $400 hand guided CNC winder and a, say, $650 full on CNC winder, I would definitely go the extra $250. And, the hand guiding can also be done on the full CNC unit if you want to wind that way (well, at least it can on mine).

I've successfully been down this CNC winder development road and sincerely look forward to following you and your team on that journey. In my opinion, that's the cool stuff! Please post lots of pictures and progress updates.

All the best Hugh.

[John_H]

The winders that are available do command a high price. This proves that there is a market for them.

*Either an OLED or backlit high contrast monochrome LCD display. This would handle important information such as a turn counter, RPM, direction of rotation, and possibly more. It will most likely be a 16x2 display, which means two lines of 16 characters.

I wouldn't want it too bright, or too near the bobbin. The less eyestrain, the better.

*Foot pedal speed control plus start/stop. This would most likely be made from a wah/volume pedal shell because, although we could make our own from scratch, I would rather over-build. Alternatives are being considered such as a handheld controller with a stick not unlike those found on a modern video game console controller. The handheld concept would lend itself nicely to anyone who upgrades the system so that speed as well as traversing could be controlled manually... essentially a hands-off hand-wound pickup.

I think a foot pedal is bad idea. It's very uncomfortable to try to hold a constant speed for several minutes. On mine, after the speed is set I just use the toggle switch.

[Enzo]

Maybe a different foot controller. The one in my car allows me to hold a constant speed for long periods of time comfortably. And a zillion sewing machines use them OK. I saw my mom sew all day long without griping about the pedal. And lord knows she griped about SOMETHING all the time.

[David King]

I'm not particularly fond of stepper motors. The torque drops too precipitously as soon as you try to crank the speed up to anything reasonable for hand winding. If they happen to stall they are incapable of self-starting until you drop the speed back. They are annoyingly noisy and they run hot. I'd much rather see a DC or a 3 phase AC motor and VFD controller. That's just me -budget generally trumps common sense.

[John_H]

Maybe a different foot controller. The one in my car allows me to hold a constant speed for long periods of time comfortably.

True, but when I get on the highway, and travel at a constant speed, I use my cruise control. I tried the foot pedal route, and didn't care for it. I found it easier to use a switch, and a knob.

[kayakerca]

I'm not particularly fond of stepper motors. The torque drops too precipitously as soon as you try to crank the speed up to anything reasonable for hand winding.

I agree if the stepper you use has insufficient torque. The first motor I used I could stop with the tension from a piece of SPN42. It had 1250 g-cm holding torque @ 1A and 1090 g-cm low speed torque. It worked fine otherwise so long as I didn't "try" to stop it. I raised the bar and went to a stepper that had 4800 g-cm holding torque @ 2.5A and 4240 g-cm low speed torque. Not problem after that. The higher torque stepper was a NEMA-17, so not a huge motor physical dimension wise either.

These were bipolar steppers which have more torque than unipolar steppers of similar physical spec.

If they happen to stall they are incapable of self-starting until you drop the speed back.

I found that steppers can be finicky for sure and if they stall, you start over. But you work around that with the software. You don't let it do stupid things it really doesn't want to do. You make sure that you code in appropriate "ramp-up" and "ramp-down" routines so it doesn't lockup when you hit or let off on the gas pedal (which you want anyway so you don't break the wire). You code it right and they work great. They are accurate to a fault and you don't need a counter or a tachometer as you just code that into the interface as something that is displayed.

They are annoyingly noisy and they run hot. I'd much rather see a DC or a 3 phase AC motor and VFD controller. That's just me -budget generally trumps common sense.

They make noise for sure but not really anything nearing 'annoyingly' in my opinion and my winder has 2 of them. Have a listen the my winder in the short video I took in the "Working on a new winder thread".

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t31799-2/#post294537

You can hear the two motors for sure, but the the resonant frequency noise of my brass wire guide (which I've subsequently fixed) or the shop radio at low volume are much louder. This is also an iphone camera right on top of the winder. Those 2 steppers are not loud at all, at least at the speeds I run the winds at.

I found they will run hot(ish) if you are running them at excessively high speeds relative to their capacity. At the winding speeds I like (~ 1,100 rpm) both the winder motor and the traverser motor run at very acceptable temperatures. Warm to the touch and never hot.

You seem to have had some very bad experiences with steppers David. I am happy to say that mine have been different. Just watch the video. The steppers can make a very sweet winder when you use the coding to run things properly.

I believe that steppers could make a very good base for a commercial winder like Hugh is proposing. But, I'm just a newbie hobbyist guy with no technical skills and who's livelihood isn't dependent on having the perfect winder.

[Hugh Evans]

So... Would a wah-wah style rocker pedal as I described fit the bill? Off when all the way back, increasing in speed as tilted forward, and holds speed when you lift your foot. I see your point, and that's why I'm avoiding sewing machine pedals. If a knob is preferred it would be a trivial option to implement.

[kayakerca]

So... Would a wah-wah style rocker pedal as I described fit the bill? Off when all the way back, increasing in speed as tilted forward, and holds speed when you lift your foot. I see your point, and that's why I'm avoiding sewing machine pedals. If a knob is preferred it would be a trivial option to implement.

Have you considered building the full working winder prototype controlled from some front panel analog input devices on the winder? Then, experiment with a number of different external "physical" control devices as alternative control options that the winding community might find enhance the use of the product? Those prototyping analog pressure switches, rotary controls, linear slider controls, distance sensors, mini joysticks, etc are REAL inexpensive as in the $10 - $40 area. As I see it, when it comes to a hand guided winder, you are really only talking about "on/off" and "speed" control devices once the wind is undeway.

Just a thought.

[Bruce Johnson]

I hate to ask a rude question, but is there really any market for a manual winder like this? Has anyone asked Schatten how many winders they have sold over the years? How many of them has Stew-Mac sold? I'd be surprised if Stew-Mac sold more than 2 or 3 per year. I think that the reason why there aren't any good competitors to the Schatten is because there isn't any market of buyers. Both at the pro-level and the hobbyist-level, pickup winding is a very small club.

Look at this forum. This is the largest (and only?) pickup winders' forum that I know of. And how many of us are here? We have maybe 10 of us pro winders, and 30 or so hobbyist winders. I'm a pro winder in the sense that I build basses for a living, and I design and build my own pickups for my basses. But I'm an oddity in that. Out of the 70 or so (small) pro bass builders that I know, only a couple of us make our own pickups. Same with the guitar builders. Very few are interested in winding their own, unless they need to use a design that no one manufactures.

Most of us pro winders have built our own machines, to suit our own needs. The motor, spindle and counter are the easy part. The time and money goes into the tooling and the automatic or CNC feed system to make our operation efficient and consistent. I built my winder in 2005 and it's served me well. It's a mechanical automatic feed machine, and I put about $1000 in labor and materials into it. If I eventually need to improve it or add more capacity, I'll most likely build another one. I'm not likely to buy a commercial machine. I think that's true of most of us pros.

Now, a few of the pro guys on here are really into the old vintage winding machines, restoring and using them. That's cool, and it's all part of their thing of making authentic replica pickups. So, some of the vintage winding machines can end up selling for good money. But it's only a few guys who really want to restore the old Leesons. That's also a very small club.

If you look at the hobbyist winders on here, almost all of them have built their own machines. That's part of the fun, and they aren't going to spend the money for a Schatten.

As a personal example of this, since I have my own machine shop here, I've offered my services to the guys on this forum, to help them with the harder parts to make, like face plates and hubs. All for prices like $25-$75, which is barely worth my time, but I do it to help guys out and encourage them to get started. The net result: In seven years, about 12 guys have contacted me, interested in having parts made. And I've sold, I believe, four face plates. I'm not complaining. But that's what kind of market you are dealing with here.

If you developed a Schatten-style machine, better quality and with a few nicer features, and offered it for $350, how many winders on this forum would actually step up and buy one? Anyone? Even if you managed to get the price down to $100, how many would you sell? A couple? If you made and sold your machine for $250 to places like Stew-Mac or Mojo, and they sold them for $350 (which is a low markup), how many would they sell? Would they sell any more than the Schattens? Maybe, but not many. I just don't see the market being there to justify a machine in this price and feature range.

I think you'll do much better with a $2000 CNC winder. There is a real market for that. Smaller guitar companies and established small pickup manufacturers might go for it, if it's a good turn-key machine. They are willing to spend some money on something that will make them money. And guys looking to start up a new pickup business might be willing to invest in that too, as a quick way to get going.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but this "Winding Community" that you are speaking of is a couple of us sitting around chatting with David Schwab......

[big_teee]

Let him have his fun!
He is Just What iffing anyway.
What is killing guitar pickup making and sales More than anything IMO is GFS.
Everywhere you go on forums, that has gotten to be the Norm for Pickups, and all they talk about.
Your Bedroom playing guitarist is buying the Hell out of them.
I think the boom of winding has Peaked already!
Sure you'll have some techies like us that will do it, but with the GFS China and Korean made pickups so cheap, most want bother.
My 2 Cents.
T

[Hugh Evans]

There may well not be enough of a market to bother with going forward. It's potential side project derived from work with a local pickup and amplifier company for whom a full on CNC build is underway. It's entirely possible that companies such as GFS will run all but the most resilient winders out of business, and the market reached saturation some time ago. Perhaps 10 years from now the concept will make more sense. Ultimately, it doesn't hurt me either way. But I like the idea of creating a solid foundation for winders to start and then expand the feature set of their machines as they see fit by having access to the right hardware from the start.

You have made some very solid points, Terry. Realistic, honest feedback is more valuable than being told it sounds cool. It's more stuff to ponder.

[big_teee]

Go ahead and make them, heck if they are cheap enough, I'll buy one.
I did a similar thread one time.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t30155-2/
Everyone put what they wanted in a manual winder.
Give it a look.
Remington wanted too much money, so I told them to scrap it!
T

[Hugh Evans]

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. If you don't mind my asking, what was the price estimate that brought everything to a grinding halt? It appears I got pretty close to the desired feature list on my own with a few exceptions that I will now explore. To keep costs down I've been designing everything I can using off the shelf parts. A few things will most likely need to fabricated using CNC, but I don't charge myself much to develop tool paths and fixtures. Another big question: What do people around here consider a reasonable price? I've been operating off of the goal to aim for equal or less than Schatten. My design doesn't call for cheap parts, and even with moderate volume including all of the features you ended up with it might be $200 to have a fully assembled unit ready to ship. I would *love* to have a bill of materials that lands between $100 and $150. In kit form (would anyone prefer a kit?) it's not inconceivable that they could sell with a $50 to $100 markup because it takes time to design a machine, write assembly instructions (I took several technical writing courses for this purpose,) as well as fabricate parts and sub-assemblies that don't make sense to put on the buyer.

With respect to improving visibility during winding, I will finally have a chance to apply my studies in human optics! A bright white card is actually far less than optimal. The human eye prefers light gray or other highly unsaturated colors with 10% to 15% luminance to more easily see a thin dark wire. Black against a white background is very difficult to see. I'm starting to picture a few auxiliary ports for external speed control, light, etc. It should be fun, and it's a no risk venture (because I waste my time on projects that don't pan out on a regular basis.)

Thanks again. I'll be posting some more thoughts and perhaps a few renderings soon.

[Chris Turner]

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. If you don't mind my asking, what was the price estimate that brought everything to a grinding halt? It appears I got pretty close to the desired feature list on my own with a few exceptions that I will now explore. To keep costs down I've been designing everything I can using off the shelf parts. A few things will most likely need to fabricated using CNC, but I don't charge myself much to develop tool paths and fixtures. Another big question: What do people around here consider a reasonable price? I've been operating off of the goal to aim for equal or less than Schatten. My design doesn't call for cheap parts, and even with moderate volume including all of the features you ended up with it might be $200 to have a fully assembled unit ready to ship. I would *love* to have a bill of materials that lands between $100 and $150. In kit form (would anyone prefer a kit?) it's not inconceivable that they could sell with a $50 to $100 markup because it takes time to design a machine, write assembly instructions (I took several technical writing courses for this purpose,) as well as fabricate parts and sub-assemblies that don't make sense to put on the buyer.

With respect to improving visibility during winding, I will finally have a chance to apply my studies in human optics! A bright white card is actually far less than optimal. The human eye prefers light gray or other highly unsaturated colors with 10% to 15% luminance to more easily see a thin dark wire. Black against a white background is very difficult to see. I'm starting to picture a few auxiliary ports for external speed control, light, etc. It should be fun, and it's a no risk venture (because I waste my time on projects that don't pan out on a regular basis.)

Thanks again. I'll be posting some more thoughts and perhaps a few renderings soon.

IMO, I think you'd get more traction with a kit. That would come in at a better price-point, and would also serve to satisfy some of the DIY urges that a lot of us hobbyist winders have.