insulation type

[Rosewood]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if the type of insulation was more important than the build thickness. I have Jason's book, 2nd edition I think, in which he states he did not believe the insulation type made much difference. I hope I have that right, anyway to me it would seem to be the build thickness as the most important of the two. I mean wouldn't poly the same thickness as formvar sound the same?

[David Schwab]

I also don't believe the type of insulation has much of an effect, but the thickness (build) does. A thicker build spaces the wire farther apart.

[Possum]

My opinion.....

build will have more effect than insulation type but insulation type does have an effect and I'm sure some others will chime in on this. Plain enamel and poly do sound different, PE sounds more dry/organic/vintage while poly sounds more modern/splashy/rock. I've only used formvar in heavy build so its hard to say what single sounds like versus the others.

[David Schwab]

build will have more effect than insulation type but insulation type does have an effect and I'm sure some others will chime in on this. Plain enamel and poly do sound different, PE sounds more dry/organic/vintage while poly sounds more modern/splashy/rock. I've only used formvar in heavy build so its hard to say what single sounds like versus the others.

You know I was going to post "ask Dave... " I knew you would have an answer. I have no experience winding with a bunch of insulator types.

This brings us back to the "dielectric dispersion" mentioned in the thread on the tube-o-lator lacquer. I started reading that article, and found another interesting reference here where the inventor is talking about a "dispersive delay line" that splits the full band audio signal into it's various frequencies, as a prism does with white light:

(from the first article)

As long as the light beam is in the air, all spektrum colours move with identical velocity. After the entrance into the prism this is no longer valid because glass is a dispersive medium. The red light portion has now a different velocity from the blue one and therefore it comes to a "split" of the light beam into its components, the rainbow colours. Similar things happen when complex music signals run through a dielectric material.

For the audio wave guides, the inventor wrote:

The material should have a lower electric conductivity than conventional conductors; the constructed prototypes are made of brass. This type of material was taken to increase the skin deep of the physical skin effect.

So there's another reference to brass as it would affect the tone of a pickup.

This would also validate the whole "skin effect" in the audio frequency range, which is what Monster Cable has been saying all these years.

[NightWinder]

It absolutly does make a difference. PE wins everytime (in my opinion). I have countless Hrs of R&D.....Its a fact. Schwab has been resisting the notion almost every time, and has never agreed in this (shhhh, He's a bassplayer that plays guitar). The best thing you can do is wind 2 pickups and compare. Better yet- RECORD 10 second clips and compare

[Rosewood]

I don't know that it really matters but could you measure the difference some way or would it be one of those "it just is" kinda things?

[NightWinder]

I'm working on it...You can definately hear the difference. If I made 2 pickups with the same gauge/build....one of each, PE wins every time!! Had it not, I'd gladly save my money? Pricing is much more

[Rosewood]

About a year ago I was thinking about winding some really small round coils to keep it simple (and cheap) and to make it easier to keep the coils similar but I never decided on a good way to test them. Is any of the major guitar companys like gibson still using PE? If they are there must be something to it because profit is usually the bottom line and they would use the cheapest.

[Spence]

It's pointless re-hashing this topic. I am a believer in coatings having their own effect on tone to a small extent. It's that small extent that makes the difference.
The answer to your question Rosewood is suck it and see. Make your own informed decision and don't be bullied into accepting someone else's opinion.

[PoorMan]

I always find myself agreeing with Spence.

I'm a relative noob and I've read there is no difference, there is a difference but you won't hear it when the band starts playing, and that there is a major difference...all from different reputable winders. I suspect there might be other factors/components that come into play that might enhance or degrade tonal differences between different insulations. That is to say, there might be a major difference between SPN and PE in Nightwinder's pickups, but not Dave Schwab's based on other tangible and intangible factors. We all have different ears too.

But (as Spence suggests) ultimately you should wind two pickups as similar as possible, with all the same components (save the different insulations) and make that decision for yourself. I haven't done so myself, but I have every intention to.

[NightWinder]

+1 on that recommendation. Also, Spence usually posts answers only once....so read his posts carefully, take it and run like the dickens!!

[Rosewood]

Got it.

[David Schwab]

It absolutly does make a difference. PE wins everytime (in my opinion). I have countless Hrs of R&D.....Its a fact. Schwab has been resisting the notion almost every time, and has never agreed in this (shhhh, He's a bassplayer that plays guitar). The best thing you can do is wind 2 pickups and compare. Better yet- RECORD 10 second clips and compare

Well for the record I've only had experience with poly coated wire. Youknow sometimes it's easy to think about insulators and think "it's just an insulator".

Peter Baxandall basically said the same thing.

Now clearly you can hear differences in things. I can hear a difference in one pickup when you flip the phase. But I couldn't even describe that. So I think some stuff is heard by some ears and not others.

For years I defended Monster cables on the BottomLine mailing list because I could hear the difference, while others couldn't. Recently I retired my 20 year old Monster cable because it was getting microphonic, and bought a "regular" high quality cable... and I can't hear a difference.

So with something like magnet wire insulation, I'll read up on it, and some people seem to hear a difference, while others don't.

Logically it wouldn't make sense for it to sound different just from an insulator stand point. You would think it would have to involve a change in capacitance or something.

Then I stop and think about it and I agree that different materials could probably affect the tone. But since we don't know why, it's hard to validate.

For instance, after revisiting the "Tube-O-Lator lacquer" thing, Dave's response made me stop and think about it... so I started reading a few more web sites and now I actually found an explanation of why that would work.

So heck, if wax can change the tone of a pickup, why not graphite on the top of a plastic IC case?

I sure don't know everything, and I think way too much!

Oh and I started on drums, then guitar, and then bass. So I've been playing guitar slightly longer...

But I'm not a guitar player that plays bass, or a bass player that plays guitar...

[NightWinder]

Your too cool : )
Nothing wrong with getting the thinker thinking, I just have some serious insomia over Gear in general. Pickups Consumes my thoughts. However, you should take the plunge and get some PE, I believe you'd hear it.

[David Schwab]

I don't know that it really matters but could you measure the difference some way or would it be one of those "it just is" kinda things?

Ah, there's the rub, as they say. You can't measure something that you don't know about. That's the entire conundrum about science... science is all about the tangible, which can be measured. But if you don't know what quality you are looking for, where do you look? You couldn't test for X-Rays if you didn't know they existed for example. And how would you know? You can't see them. The scientific method can verify that a statement is true based on the observable evidence that a thing exists. But what if we don't know how to observe something? Then we also have the whole Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that certain measurements reduce the accuracy of other measurements. See where this is going?

When you start reading enough esoteric audiophile stuff, many times they say you have to "grease your ears"; once you accept that there is an improvement in the audio system, based on some new device, you will start to hear it. So you must believe it's real. (and some of these ideas are things like "plain piece of blue paper under any vase of flowers or any pot plant in the listening room" and "aligning the slots in all screw heads so that the slots are parallel to the earth's surface.") Where do we draw the line?

This is why discoveries are always made by accident, because if you don't know something exists, you can't find it!

I'm heavily into metaphysics, so I should be the first one to say that reality is less ridged than we usually believe.