What is the sound and power difference between Fender Princeton and Deluxe Reverb?

[Alan0354]

I know it's a stupid question. I just read a lot of people paid more for a lower power Princeton over the Deluxe because it's lower power and they claimed it sounds better. I looked at the schematic. The difference is in the PI section. Deluxe using standard differential pair where Princeton uses a unity gain stage and pick off from the plate and cathode to form the differential signal.

I have no experience with the unity gain PI stage, it is used a lot in the tweed type of amps. Tell me what is the sound characteristics between the two.

Also, but amps use 6V6 and Princeton has even higher plate voltage on the power tube than Deluxe ( 420V vs 400V). Of cause I know if they use small PT the voltage sag. But you do have the extra 20V!!!

[g1]

The difference is not just the PI. The 15W Princeton is lower power, which is what some people want.
Some people are very sensitive to what loudness the amp starts to break up at. For example, to some people, a Deluxe is too quiet but a Super is too loud, they want something in between (like 35W Vibrolux).
Yes the phase splitter of the Princeton is different, but that is not necessarily why people like them. Some people just want a lower power amp.
If you want to compare the sound of different phase splitter types, you would have to compare them in the same model amp.

Edit: If you have found some models of Princeton and Deluxe that are same power, please specify exact version numbers.

[Alan0354]

I know the two are different in power, why is it? Because of smaller PT and OT? As I said, the voltage of Princeton is even higher. So unless the PT of Princeton sag a tremendous amount, it should have the same power as DR.

[g1]

Yes, power output is always limited by the capability of the power transformer. It must be much lower current if 20V higher.
Which specific versions of Princeton and Deluxe are you referring to?

[Chuck H]

I have to wonder who in their right mind pays more for a Princeton than a Deluxe (and I think we're talking about the "Reverb" models here and that is even more obtuse). The Deluxe Reverb is a coveted classic and most Princeton Reverb owners WISH they had the DR. In fact there are a lot of PR's out there that have had the trem tube rewired to accommodate a LTP PI to get closer to the DR circuit. I'm not personally pitting one against the other, but it's always seemed to me that the DR is the more collectible amp.

As to the LTP vs. the cathodyne splitter, it's actually a wash unless you're overdriving the piss out of them. If you look at the typical Fender circuit for the cathodyne it's pretty much a straight shot from the set up stage to the input of the cathodyne. Since the cathodyne has a gain of just less than one, and isn't easily clipped, the gain of the whole two triode circuit could well be even higher than an LTP, which is also two triodes. It's MHO though that the LTP clips in a more predictable and refined way. That gives it the edge for amps where the PI will be clipping. JM2C on that.

As to sag in the Princeton... The PR was a less expensive amp. It had smaller transformers than the DR. The power supply would sag just a little more and the OT didn't reproduce the bottom end as well. It IS a saggier and thinner amp. Though not by a lot. The perceived "loudness" is also affected by the speaker, which could have been something as good as a Jensen p12r 12" in the DR (though more likely an Oxford 12") but would have invariably been an Oxford 10" in the PR. A much lesser speaker for both fidelity and efficiency.

It's true that there are PR aficionados. That's because they didn't get into a DR and secretly wish they had

[JoeM]

I have to wonder who in their right mind pays more for a Princeton than a Deluxe (and I think we're talking about the "Reverb" models here and that is even more obtuse). The Deluxe Reverb is a coveted classic and most Princeton Reverb owners WISH they had the DR. ....

Where do you get this from? They are both great amps. I've never known or met anyone with a PR who said they wished they had a DR. Especially ones who have cut the baffles for a 12" speaker.

[soundguruman]

Your question is not stupid.
20 V difference in a tube amp ain't dink. It don't mean duddley. Nada, nil, nothing.
that's like 5%

which is better a Princeton or a deluxe?
The deluxe definitely sound better. The Princeton sound wheezy compared to a deluxe.
you should note that the old deluxe is one of the most sought after tube amps...
But player want low power amp. Low volume to play in a club.
Club owner always crying about too loud. Turn it down.

You have 3 choices basically, but there are many other creative possibilities
1. use a less efficient speaker might be the best solution.
2. power attenuator
3. change pentode output to triode, this is not bad either

The differential pair is sounding way better.
The gain of the Deluxe is allowing a much smoother saturation in the output.
Clearly, the deluxe has more sensitivity, which is what guitar player wants.

The Princeton is old standby. It's good functional amp.
It sounds raspy cranked; opposed to smooth.
and that is probably why guitar player pay so much money for old deluxe.

Amusing, deluxe used to be bhaaa sheep, like 20-30 years ago..
But now, guitar player all over looking for one. Price go high.

Deluxe, how much you pay?

poor man's version
So, buy a Princeton, and change it to differential pair phase inverter.
Or buy Deluxe.
Change the output to triode.
I might try to change it class A triode.

[Alan0354]

I have to wonder who in their right mind pays more for a Princeton than a Deluxe (and I think we're talking about the "Reverb" models here and that is even more obtuse). The Deluxe Reverb is a coveted classic and most Princeton Reverb owners WISH they had the DR. In fact there are a lot of PR's out there that have had the trem tube rewired to accommodate a LTP PI to get closer to the DR circuit. I'm not personally pitting one against the other, but it's always seemed to me that the DR is the more collectible amp.

As to the LTP vs. the cathodyne splitter, it's actually a wash unless you're overdriving the piss out of them. If you look at the typical Fender circuit for the cathodyne it's pretty much a straight shot from the set up stage to the input of the cathodyne. Since the cathodyne has a gain of just less than one, and isn't easily clipped, the gain of the whole two triode circuit could well be even higher than an LTP, which is also two triodes. It's MHO though that the LTP clips in a more predictable and refined way. That gives it the edge for amps where the PI will be clipping. JM2C on that.

As to sag in the Princeton... The PR was a less expensive amp. It had smaller transformers than the DR. The power supply would sag just a little more and the OT didn't reproduce the bottom end as well. It IS a saggier and thinner amp. Though not by a lot. The perceived "loudness" is also affected by the speaker, which could have been something as good as a Jensen p12r 12" in the DR (though more likely an Oxford 12") but would have invariably been an Oxford 10" in the PR. A much lesser speaker for both fidelity and efficiency.

It's true that there are PR aficionados. That's because they didn't get into a DR and secretly wish they had

I absolutely agree. But I keep reading people wanting to pay more for the Princeton!!! That's the reason I post this here as I can never get it.

I want to clarify, what is a cathodyne.....is it normal differential amp like the SF Fenders and most other newer amps? What is the long word of LTP?

Matter of fact, SF DR worth a lot more than the bigger SF amps like Pro Reverb, Bandmaster Reverb or Super Reverb. I would never pay $1500 for a deluxe Reverb where I just bought a Pro Reverb for less than $600. Instead I put in zener to lower 40V and put 6V6 in it to get 20W amp!!!

There is a big disconnect between the technical people like us and the end users. Make your blood boil reading their believes. But they are the ones that pay!!!

[Chuck H]

Oh c'mon... I was just poking the fire. I know PR owners that wouldn't have it any other way. In fact I played a jam party in Santa Cruz once where Neil Young showed up. I was told he might but I was still surprised. The host band guitarist had a Princeton (non reverb model) on stage. Even though Neil had brought his famous Deluxe he just played through the Princeton and it sounded great. So Neil obviously isn't obsessing about the difference Sadly, I never got on stage with him.



Which is funny because I missed another chance to get to know him when he personally called the paint store I was working at to order product for his place (Broken Arrow Ranch). My coworker Larry was a huge fan and begged me to let him make the delivery and I gave in. They ended up smoking a joint and sitting in his studio listening to Neil's new stuff!!! From then on Neil would call in an order a few times a year, sometimes just a quart of paint. He always requested that Larry deliver it Larry usually got back around closing time I liked Larry a lot so I was always glad for my part in assisting that friendship.

[Chuck H]

I want to clarify, what is a cathodyne.....is it normal differential amp like the SF Fenders and most other newer amps? What is the long word of LTP?

A cathodyne is also called a "split load" or "concertina" or "distributed load" phase inverter!!! It's the simple circuit with equal loads on the plate and cathode, usually with a simple, integral bias arrangement for the grid. LTP stands for "long tailed pair". Also known as a "cathode coupled" PI. This is where the signal from one triode is cathode coupled via a shared cathode circuit to a grounded grid triode. There are other names for this circuit too but they tend to be only similar and not quite the same.

There is a big disconnect between the technical people like us and the end users. Make your blood boil reading their believes. But they are the ones that pay!!!

These are often the guys that are way better musicians than any of us amp geeks. Let 'em play what they like and pay attention

[Alan0354]

A cathodyne is also called a "split load" or "concertina" or "distributed load" phase inverter!!! It's the simple circuit with equal loads on the plate and cathode, usually with a simple, integral bias arrangement for the grid. LTP stands for "long tailed pair". Also known as a "cathode coupled" PI. This is where the signal from one triode is cathode coupled via a shared cathode circuit to a grounded grid triode. There are other names for this circuit too but they tend to be only similar and not quite the same.



These are often the guys that are way better musicians than any of us amp geeks. Let 'em play what they like and pay attention

So cathodyne is like in Princeton where you pick off from both plate and cathode of the same tube. LTP is differential pair like the SF Fenders?

[Chuck H]

Yes.

[soundmasterg]

In my experience there are different eras of Deluxe Reverbs with different B+ voltages in them. The very early amps had close to 400V B+ but they soon after got a 20V bump or so, and then the SF amps were at that same level or slightly higher. The early amps don't have much headroom when compared with the later BF and SF amps...and in fact some of the SF amps are better gigging amps because they have slightly more power, and a higher voltage in the preamp even when blackfaced so they have a bit more headroom.

The Princeton Reverbs sound good also, and similar to a Deluxe Reverb, with maybe a litlte crisper high end, partly due to the 10 inch speaker but also partly due to the difference in phase inverters....but when they are pushed they break up a bit more than the DR and the character of the breakup is looser and a little harsher. The DR's LTP phase inverter has a characteristic sound much more than other phase inverters.

Greg

[Justin Thomas]

What Greg said. I have two 66 PRs here to check out (no, they're not mine!) and the first thing I noticed was that at the very beginning of distortion, they are quite crisp on the attack, and very touch-sensitive towards the middle of the volume control. I can't mention the cranked sounds, since both have original or at least period-correct speakers in them, a CTS and a Jensen C10NS.

Personally, I'd take the PR over the Deluxe and put it through more/bigger speakers. Only reason for a Deluxe is if I need to make two things louder!

Also, the reason SFPR/DR are more expensive than SF larger amps is because the Champ, PR & DR were never really "messed with" like the bigger amps were, and so many people figured this out. Most of the big changes were in the cabinets!

Justin

[Leo_Gnardo]

I don't find all that much difference between Princetons & Deluxes. There are some common characteristics, and both are very malleable amps when it comes to selecting tone & power level. I've found both delivering anywhere from 11W to 22W @ clip, depending on choice of rectifier tube - or solid state replacement, output tubes - funky old Mazda 6V6 across the spectrum up to modern 6L6's, output drive 12AT7 or 12AX7, year of manufacture - early models had lower voltage power supplies therefore less power. Yes there's some difference in tone relative to the output drive circuit. Then, the things I've had to do to satisfy customers. Many like to change their Princeton baffle to 12". One managed to squeeze a 2x10 baffle into his Deluxe. A common request, especially for reissue DR's is to add a triode switch - that kicks the output down to a smooth sounding 6 watts that never draws a complaint about too much volume but perfect for blues honkers whether playing guitar or harp.

So the sound & power differences can be quite a lot, depending on all the factors.

Which one's better?

Both.

Deep pocket collectors are shelling out over $2000 for showroom-quality originals of either (in their early black panel versions), and it's hard to find a "player" unless it's severely beaten up for less than $700-800. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of fixing up a factory-fresh Deluxe Reverb with chassis marking Dec.1963. (Just needed filter caps & output tubes & controls cleaned.) It had been bought by a church, kept in perfect condition, and stuffed in a closet when it finally started blowing fuses after 40+ years on the job. One of the congregation bought it for next to nothing at the annual rummage sale. One of our prime local collector-item dealers said the owner could flip that thing for $3500-4000, no problem. So far, he's keeping it. What was notable about this particular Deluxe is that it had a mellow tone, not the spiky bright we're used to. It was built to the schematic so no excuse there. The tone may have been due to the original Oxford speaker.