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Will copper shielding fix a ground buzz?

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  • #46
    The problem SGM is that you keep blathering about single coil pickups, which is not what the thread is about. Further, you keep telling us that single coil pickups will buzz no matter what. Everyone here is aware of how single coils work. What YOU are ignoring is that there are other sources of noise in a guitar than the pickup itself. We shield our cords. We put the metal covers on our plugs. leaving the controls in a guitar unshielded is exactly the same as using unshielded guitar cords.
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Enzo View Post
      The problem SGM is that you keep blathering about single coil pickups, which is not what the thread is about. Further, you keep telling us that single coil pickups will buzz no matter what. Everyone here is aware of how single coils work. What YOU are ignoring is that there are other sources of noise in a guitar than the pickup itself. We shield our cords. We put the metal covers on our plugs. leaving the controls in a guitar unshielded is exactly the same as using unshielded guitar cords.
      "leaving the controls in a guitar unshielded is exactly the same as using unshielded guitar cords."

      Maybe you forgot that the controls (pots) have metal cases, which are grounded...
      Maybe you forgot that the pickup wire is already shielded wire, which too is grounded.

      So, it's not the same as using an unshielded guitar cord. It's all shielded, already.

      And that's probably why putting foil inside the guitar does not improve it.

      As far as single coil PU buzzing, you are finally admitting the foil will not stop this noise?
      Maybe you made "some" progress.

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      • #48
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        Just to remind everyone, you are supposed to report posts you find offensive (use the triangle button at the lower left of the post).
        When a person keeps spouting nonsense just to be a jerk, then that is offensive.
        Originally posted by Enzo
        I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


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        • #49
          Or do Like I do, I have him on my ignore list.
          Last edited by big_teee; 04-21-2014, 05:18 PM.
          "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
          Terry

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          • #50
            And why have I yet to see posted here in concise language that there are two distinctly different types of induced hum/buzz with electric guitars? There is the electrically radiated type which typically is heard as harmonics of 60 Hz...the kind that buzzes. That can be cured pretty much by proper shielding with said shield(s) connected to ground, preferably through "star" grounding. This is the noise that goes away when you physically touch a grounded part of the guitar or a metal cover on a guitar cord connected to the instrument.

            Then there is magnetically induced hum, heard mostly as 60 Hz., and that can only be cured through pickup design...magnetic shielding does a remarkable job with some pickup types...or more commonly hum-bucking or hum-cancelling designs using one coil to negate hum induced in the other. This is the noise that changes depending on the orientation of the guitar, particularly in relation to transformers in any electrical gear.

            Also, you can do a pretty darned good job shielding Strat-type single coil pickups by painting the inside of the pickup covers with shielding paint. That keeps added capacitance to a minimum. Put a piece of conductive copper tape in first as a solder tab, paint inside, enjoy less noise.

            If you are going to wrap a coil with copper tape for a shield, leave a gap to lessen eddy current losses.

            The higher the impedance the pickups are, the more severe electrically induced noise will be.

            There is no excuse for not shielding pickup and electronics cavities, and if you do, you can use a lot less shielded wire within these areas. That will reduce capacitive coupling issues.

            Lay down copper adhesive foil "drains", and then use a couple of coats of conductive paint. I use the Electrodag from Stew Mac. Works great. When it's dry, test point to point so you have no more than about 100 Ohms from any painted spot to the output jack. Less is better, but you don't need zero Ohms to do the job.

            And, yeah, with real single coil pickups, you always will have some residual hum issues. But you can get rid of most of the buzz without killing tone if you do the job correctly.

            And if you think you're killing highs in a Strat or Tele with shielding, just change the pots to 500K Ohm...or even 1 meg. Or put in "no-load" tone pots and switch volumes to push-pull with pot bypass on the pull.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by soundguruman View Post
              As far as single coil PU buzzing, you are finally admitting the foil will not stop this noise?
              Maybe you made "some" progress.
              There is two kinds of noise sensed by pickups; one is electrical field noise. That's the high pitched buzz you hear. Shielding will generally get rid of that problem. The other kind is magnetic field noise; thats the 60Hz hum you hear in single coils. Shielding will not help that. For that you need a hum canceling pickup. However, humbuckers are still susceptible to the first problem.

              You will note that the first problem—that high pitched buzzing which often goes away when you touch the strings—is what the OP was complaining about, and shielding will fix that. He does not have single coils.

              Most guitar pickups are unshielded, so they can buzz even if they don't hum. And not all guitars use shielded coax cable in the control compartment, which is why it's common to shield control cavities with copper foil, or conductive paint. The extremely slight increase in capacitance, if at all, would be less than when using coax cable. The backs of the pots should be grounded, but that won't stop the single conductor wires from picking up buzz. Shielding acts like the ground plane in an amp or other electronic device.

              [EDIT] Sorry, Rick, I didn't see your post when I wrote this! Yes! Two types of noise. I see we pretty much said the same thing. lol
              It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


              http://coneyislandguitars.com
              www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

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              • #52
                Originally posted by big_teee View Post
                Or do Like I do, I have him on my ignore list.
                I'll re-purpose a famous quote here and say: "the only thing necessary for the triumph of dis-information is for good men to stand by and ignore it".
                If everyone put's him on their ignore list and he get's a free pass to post his garbage, this forum will lose what little of it's credibility there is left.
                There is a time to put petty differences aside and play nice, this has gone too far beyond that.
                Originally posted by Enzo
                I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by g-one View Post
                  I'll re-purpose a famous quote here and say: "the only thing necessary for the triumph of dis-information is for good men to stand by and ignore it".
                  If everyone put's him on their ignore list and he get's a free pass to post his garbage, this forum will lose what little of it's credibility there is left.
                  There is a time to put petty differences aside and play nice, this has gone too far beyond that.
                  I'll leave the policing of that particular issue to you guys, I just choose to ignore it!
                  Have Fun!
                  T
                  Last edited by big_teee; 04-21-2014, 06:29 PM.
                  "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                  Terry

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                  • #54
                    Terry, it's easy to ignore things that you know to be wrong. The problem is that the advice here can be indiscriminately be taken as being from experts. When folks who don't know what they're talking about or who ignore key information in an original post get on here (or all the other screwy luthiers' and electronics and audio forums) and proclaim themselves to be gurus and leading experts and then post utter garbage or half garbage or even smaller fractions of garbage, there are folks who take that advice seriously. So some of us feel the need to edit, correct, dispute, or call out the bad info. In the best of these tiffs, the person giving bad advice sees the error of their ways and stands corrected. In the worst, it gets into a big pissing match and becomes all about ego, and the truth is lost by the way.

                    One of the problems with Internet forums is that anyone can proclaim themselves a guru or expert. And they do...

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                    • #55
                      I'm no expert on anything.
                      Was pretty good at 5ESS Phone Systems, but I'm retired from that.
                      The forum here is just entertainment, and informational for me, when It quits being fun, I'm gone.
                      Most of us know enough to read and weed through the info thrown out here.
                      I prefer it when posters just post their knowledge, or Opinion and lets the reader Sort it out from there.
                      Certain ones that are consistently annoying to me get put on the ignore list!
                      Right or wrong that is my policy!
                      T
                      "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                      Terry

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                      • #56
                        Hopefully SGM, you might just step back and re-evaluate the way you reply to posts and the so-called tone that is associated with it...I for one don't know anything about you or anybody else here....so I have to go by the way the posts are worded......right or wrong.....giving somebody advice is great...or dis-agreeing with somebody else's post is also fine......but for gods sake you need to do it politely......nobody likes to be talked down to.....nobody likes to be rudely treated.....and most of all, nobody here likes to be insulted......I haven't been on the forum for too long and you have insulted me a few times here....along with alot of other people....this forum is a great place to come to get help from experts........but there is really no need for them to be insulted during the process........

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                        • #57
                          The forum here is just entertainment, and informational for me, when It quits being fun, I'm gone.
                          Most of us know enough to read and weed through the info thrown out here.

                          Well teee, a lot of us here don't. You and I maybe, and certainly the other experienced techs. But to that kid with a post count of three, trying to fix his own practice amp, the only amp he ever owned, this is like an encyclopedia. He doesn't know, and accepts the bullshit as truth.

                          I went to college at Michigan State University. It was a very large campus, even larger now 45-50 years later. The main campus is a couple miles wide and a good mile or so deep. Freshmen could come to campus and really not know how to get from one building to another. Older students, I suspect mostly sophomores, thought it hilarious to misdirect the freshmen. They might ask you how to get to the astronomy building, or the natural science building, or the library. And the upperclassman would provide directions to the womens' gym. Har har. Point was, they had no idea they were being lied to. So they'd hike a mile out of their way only to find themselves someplace other than where they needed to be.

                          One thing makes my blood boil is people taking advantage of those not ready to defend themselves. Those people who scam old folks our of their retirement with phony roofing or driveway scams, or anything Kevin Trudeau ever published. So it riles me when an innocent is led astray here.

                          We may offer good advice, but to many, this is just one big forum. So when some kid comes asking for help, he isn't going to remember how helpful Enzo or big-teee was, he is going to tell his friends how great MEF was. And when someone like SGM comes along and soils it, he soils all of us. And when his BS is discovered to be BS, that is when the kid WILL remember names. Enzo? Oh right, you're from that BS forum.
                          Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                          • #58
                            Perhaps the site should have an SGM type disclaimer on it for newer users?
                            When the going gets weird... The weird turn pro!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Enzo View Post
                              Well teee, a lot of us here don't. You and I maybe, and certainly the other experienced techs. But to that kid with a post count of three, trying to fix his own practice amp, the only amp he ever owned, this is like an encyclopedia. He doesn't know, and accepts the bullshit as truth.

                              I went to college at Michigan State University. It was a very large campus, even larger now 45-50 years later. The main campus is a couple miles wide and a good mile or so deep. Freshmen could come to campus and really not know how to get from one building to another. Older students, I suspect mostly sophomores, thought it hilarious to misdirect the freshmen. They might ask you how to get to the astronomy building, or the natural science building, or the library. And the upperclassman would provide directions to the womens' gym. Har har. Point was, they had no idea they were being lied to. So they'd hike a mile out of their way only to find themselves someplace other than where they needed to be.

                              One thing makes my blood boil is people taking advantage of those not ready to defend themselves. Those people who scam old folks our of their retirement with phony roofing or driveway scams, or anything Kevin Trudeau ever published. So it riles me when an innocent is led astray here.

                              We may offer good advice, but to many, this is just one big forum. So when some kid comes asking for help, he isn't going to remember how helpful Enzo or big-teee was, he is going to tell his friends how great MEF was. And when someone like SGM comes along and soils it, he soils all of us. And when his BS is discovered to be BS, that is when the kid WILL remember names. Enzo? Oh right, you're from that BS forum.
                              Enzo, thanks for that, but you're Preaching to the Choir!
                              The best you can do, is the best you can do.
                              I still contend, that most of the BS gets filtered pretty fast.
                              Maybe this thread should be mandatory reading for all New Members.
                              When I'm just giving my Opinin on something, I do the leadoff of IMO.
                              The main thing with Amps is Safety first, that is Priority One.
                              On guitars, and Pickups, there is nothing life threatening.
                              Worse comes to worse the new member can take his or her broke amp or guitar, to a Music repair Shop.
                              Unless you pay a pro Tech support staff Here, It is still only a volunteer Forum!
                              It is what it is, and He's still on My List!
                              Peace and Tone to All,
                              T
                              Last edited by big_teee; 04-22-2014, 12:52 AM.
                              "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                              Terry

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                              • #60
                                Enzo.....I for one do not judge everybody on the forum with the same opinion.....I will always hold a high respect for this forum and the many people who come here to give good sound advice....if somebody is an idiot then it is that person and not the forum in general that I will laugh at........you are doing a great job in helping people like me....and it is very much appreciated.....it is the idiot that tends to upset the apple cart...and thank god there are not very many of them on the forum...

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