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what makes 57 classics sound different from 490r/490t's, & Burstbuckers

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  • what makes 57 classics sound different from 490r/490t's, & Burstbuckers

    to my ear, the 57 classics have a clearer high end while the 490r and 490t have a high mid-range emphasis, as described in their marketing. i can't find any difference in the specs to account for this. they seem to both use A2, machine wound symmetric coils, and about the same DCR.

    does anyone know what it is about their manufacture that makes them sound different?

    i ask because i'm thinking of re-winding my 490's.

    cheers.
    Last edited by big_teee; 08-08-2014, 07:36 PM. Reason: Merged similar threads, and changed Name

  • #2
    That is a good question.
    I looked up the specs, and I found conflicting info on the 57.
    One says the 57 is A2, and another said it is an A5.
    So if you have a way to compare all the parts and check the gauss, of the 2 pickups.
    Chart it out, and see if you can find a difference.
    Wire type
    wire size, (mic it if possible)
    Magnet length, and gauss
    Compare the metal parts
    Keeper, slugs and screws.
    DCR
    If you don't want to tear up the bobbins initially.
    Wind new 49.2mm bobbins and use all of the 490 parts, and see what you get.
    GL,
    T
    ** I read that the 57 is a PAF Clone, with old style braided hookup wire.
    The 490 is a more modern with a 4 wire cable.
    So probably other things different in the pickup.
    Last edited by big_teee; 06-03-2014, 04:39 PM.
    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
    Terry

    Comment


    • #3
      thanks.

      i don't have a magnetometer. they are both A2, according to gibson documentation: http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/da...ckup_Guide.pdf. this document also states that the 57 classic has balanced coils. for what it's worth, i found that another forum member dissected his 57 classic and says he measured "142" with a cheap magnetometer. no units were specified, and i wouldn't know how to infer magnet type from the measurement in any case. he also measured 7.91kohms dcr, and said the wire looked like plain enamel, and the base plate was nickle silver (not plated brass).

      gibson also says the 490r/t have "enhanced highs". i would say it's more like enhanced high mids; it's kind of a nasal and pinched off sound. as an analogy, imagine the mid boost from a tubescreamer, but more subtle.

      i measured 7.85k, and 8.1k dcr for my 490r, and 490t respectively, and i can't see any brass through the tooling marks or screw holes on the base plates. i'm pretty sure the 490's have balanced coils, although i haven't tested mine yet to be certain. i don't know what wire type is used for the 490r/t, but they seem to me to be very similar in design to the 57 in all other respects. it seems like there aren't many design differences left to explain the difference in sound: apparently the same hardware, dcr, magnet type, and symmetric coils.

      it seems like i'm missing somthing -- how much could winding tension and layering, or insulation type really change the sound?

      Comment


      • #4
        As BT said, check the wire size. if the resistance is the same but the wire size different, then the number of turns is different, and that would lead to different resonant frequencies, and explain the difference in sound. (not that it might not be something else, so you have to check it all.)

        Originally posted by big_teee View Post
        That is a good question.
        I looked up the specs, and I found conflicting info on the 57.
        One says the 57 is A2, and another said it is an A5.
        So if you have a way to compare all the parts and check the gauss, of the 2 pickups.
        Chart it out, and see if you can find a difference.
        Wire type
        wire size, (mic it if possible)
        Magnet length, and gauss
        Compare the metal parts
        Keeper, slugs and screws.
        DCR
        If you don't want to tear up the bobbins initially.
        Wind new 49.2mm bobbins and use all of the 490 parts, and see what you get.
        GL,
        T
        ** I read that the 57 is a PAF Clone, with old style braided hookup wire.
        The 490 is a more modern with a 4 wire cable.
        So probably other things different in the pickup.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by elipsey View Post
          thanks.

          i don't have a magnetometer. they are both A2, according to gibson documentation: http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/da...ckup_Guide.pdf. this document also states that the 57 classic has balanced coils. for what it's worth, i found that another forum member dissected his 57 classic and says he measured "142" with a cheap magnetometer. no units were specified, and i wouldn't know how to infer magnet type from the measurement in any case. he also measured 7.91kohms dcr, and said the wire looked like plain enamel, and the base plate was nickle silver (not plated brass).

          gibson also says the 490r/t have "enhanced highs". i would say it's more like enhanced high mids; it's kind of a nasal and pinched off sound. as an analogy, imagine the mid boost from a tubescreamer, but more subtle.

          i measured 7.85k, and 8.1k dcr for my 490r, and 490t respectively, and i can't see any brass through the tooling marks or screw holes on the base plates. i'm pretty sure the 490's have balanced coils, although i haven't tested mine yet to be certain. i don't know what wire type is used for the 490r/t, but they seem to me to be very similar in design to the 57 in all other respects. it seems like there aren't many design differences left to explain the difference in sound: apparently the same hardware, dcr, magnet type, and symmetric coils.

          it seems like i'm missing somthing -- how much could winding tension and layering, or insulation type really change the sound?
          Gibson says all three pickups use "special" Alnico II magnets (but no indication of size and strength), and the '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire.

          The differences in the winding is probably what accounts for the difference in tone.
          It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


          http://coneyislandguitars.com
          www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
            Gibson says all three pickups use "special" Alnico II magnets (but no indication of size and strength), and the '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire.

            The differences in the winding is probably what accounts for the difference in tone.
            In 2006 Gibson cheaped-down the '57 Classics by using poly wire... but they ordered the same color as PE.

            Sneaky...
            Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
            Milano, Italy

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LtKojak View Post
              In 2006 Gibson cheaped-down the '57 Classics by using poly wire... but they ordered the same color as PE.

              Sneaky...
              I had heard about that some time ago. They are still saying it's PE, but it is Gibson, so I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

              Like they just made a reissue of the Les Paul Recording guitar, which they are saying is an "exact" replica (with modern updates), and say it was Les' favorite guitar, only it has regular high impedance humbuckers and none of the cool controls.

              So for them, as long as it looks the same, it's good enough.
              It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


              http://coneyislandguitars.com
              www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
                as long as it looks the same, it's good enough.
                You should add "and it costs less", it's good enough.
                Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
                Milano, Italy

                Comment


                • #9
                  I noticed that most of the reissues, seem to have different pickups.
                  They try to get an overall reissue look, then they probably call it Good enough.
                  Last edited by big_teee; 07-31-2014, 06:01 PM.
                  "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                  Terry

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LtKojak View Post
                    You should add "and it costs less", it's good enough.
                    Nothing from Gibson cost less!
                    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


                    http://coneyislandguitars.com
                    www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The 490r/490t has a different winding pattern than the 57's
                      "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
                        Nothing from Gibson cost less!
                        I thought it was clear I was talking about production costs...
                        Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
                        Milano, Italy

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So it sounds like Some differences are?
                          Different baseplate, but similar.
                          Different wire, one uses PE, one uses SPN.
                          Wire Size, and resistace per foot, if not the same can make a difference in sound.
                          Slugs and screws maybe different steel used?
                          Not sure if same plastic Bobbin parts are used.
                          Magnets, we presume are similar, with similar gauss.
                          Pickup covers, can change sound depending on thickness, and metal used for construction.
                          57 uses braided pushback cable, the Other uses 4 wire cable.
                          That leaves Winding pattern, and winding tension, and turns count.
                          If they were mine and I really wanted answers, I would start moving things around and testing.
                          First the covers would come off, and retest them without the covers.
                          Get a plastic bag for each and mark the parts well.
                          That would be an interesting experiment.
                          T
                          Last edited by big_teee; 08-04-2014, 01:19 PM.
                          "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                          Terry

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Merged with Other Similar Thread

                            Hi! I'm wondering what are the differences beteween these two pickps, looking at the specs the only difference I found is matched coils for the '57s and unmatched for the BB's. I have a home made Les Paul with '57s and a friend has an R7 with BB, the only difference i noted was that the BB's were just slighty brighter, sadly I couldn't play his R7 for more time to hear more in detail, but they sounded pretty similar.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Silvio55 View Post
                              Hi! I'm wondering what are the differences beteween these two pickps, looking at the specs the only difference I found is matched coils for the '57s and unmatched for the BB's. I have a home made Les Paul with '57s and a friend has an R7 with BB, the only difference i noted was that the BB's were just slighty brighter, sadly I couldn't play his R7 for more time to hear more in detail, but they sounded pretty similar.
                              The main difference is the way the wire is wound in the coils, called "coil geometry" or "wind pattern". You can wind two p'ups with the same wire and same turns count with different coil geometry and sounding like complete opposites.

                              HTH,
                              Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
                              Milano, Italy

                              Comment

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