Cryogenic treatment of guitars warning

[Joe Gwinn]

No iron contains any significant carbon.

You mean like cast iron?

[Diablo]

You never find any peer-reviewed scientific papers showing measurable effects of cryo treatments on materials other than hardenable steel alloys. You can find all sorts of wild claims by the folks selling cryo treatments. If you can't measure something, it doesn't exist.

[Joe Gwinn]

I'm with Rick and Salversan on this. There are places where cyro treatment works, so making direct tests is the only way to know if cyro does anything significant and useful for pickups.



I'll be offline for a week.

[Diablo]

You mean like cast iron?

Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon - generally less than 1% carbon. Cast iron isn't pure iron, but iron with significantly more carbon than steel. It's difficult to make pure iron that has no carbon in solution - through special techniques you can get down to a few ppm of carbon.

[Chuck H]

You mean like cast iron?

Ok smarty pants

Cast iron can contain carbon amounts similar or higher than steels as a byproduct of manufacturing. But they are impure carbides that form up to create that brittle, grainy texture that cast iron is known for. The carbon in cast iron isn't integrated into the grain of the metal as it is in steels. Because the rough carbon present in cast iron isn't integrated as in steels cast iron doesn't qualify as a "steel" relative to it's carbon content. Some mild steels contain less carbon than cast iron but it's purity and integration are such that it still qualifies as "steel". Suffice to say that steel is defined as iron that is improved by the addition of carbon while cast iron may have more incidental carbon impurities but doesn't qualify as a steel because it's unimproved in that way. Steel was discovered by virtue of forging. The repeated heating and forming of iron renders impurities from the alloy and integrates the improved carbon effectively. Beyond that I cannot say. Since good steels are available ready made now I didn't need to know more metallurgy than that. But the nature of carbon and it's integration in cast iron renders it a moot issue with respect to cryogenic improvements.

[Diablo]

I'm with Rick and Salversan on this. There are places where cyro treatment works, so making direct tests is the only way to know if cyro does anything significant and useful for pickups.



I'll be offline for a week.

Cryo treatment is good for ice cream and popsicles. Musical instruments?....Meh.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Cryo treatment is good for ice cream and popsicles. Musical instruments?....Meh.

Cryo may or may not be a solution for certain PARTS of instruments. But guitars? You gotta shake 'em. I mean shake 'em up good! I think Rick Turner would agree. Wish I could find the link... help me out here Rick & thanks in advance!

[Mike Sulzer]

But the nature of carbon and it's integration in cast iron renders it a moot issue with respect to cryogenic improvements.

Yes, you certainly do not expect making something cold, that is, reducing the vibration speeds of the molecules, to alter the chemical structure except in special cases.

[Chuck H]

Yes, you certainly do not expect making something cold, that is, reducing the vibration speeds of the molecules, to alter the chemical structure except in special cases.

Of course it does alter the vibration speed of the molecules. Just putting items in the freezer will do that TEMPORARILY! Once returned to ambient there is no remnant significant change. Molecules can be temporarily altered in all kinds of ways. That doesn't mean it's a good idea or has a significant permanent effect.

What point were you trying to make exactly? How does this support that cryogenic treatment makes significant lasting improvements to anything?

EDIT: I've been accused of having a closed mind and failing to do research. I have a challenge. I happen to know from my research years ago that plain iron has been part of testing done in cryogenic research and shown no improvement of any kind. But as I said, this is research from my past so I don't have links or documents to offer. I now challenge YOU to research it for yourself. Why should I need to research something twice for your satisfaction when you haven't researched it at all. I get to know the truth because I already did the research. Now it's your turn.

[Mike Sulzer]

What point were you trying to make exactly? How does this support that cryogenic treatment makes significant lasting improvements to anything?

Right, you missed my point entirely; I am agreeing with you, mostly. Slowing down the rate of vibration for a while is not expected to do anything much; I am giving that as a reason why cryo would be expected to do nothing. Exceptions need to be demonstrated.

Chemical structure is altered usually by adding energy, in the form of pressure and heat, for example. You know, making rocks and things like that, or coal and oil. Expecting cryo to do something great with no reasonable theoretical or practical demonstration is just kind of silly.

[David Schwab]

Hi Chuck
My customer did indeed have the whole guitar treated. I did notice that the plastic cover was separating from the resin/potting. I don't think that I would want to treat anything in that way.

Cheers

Andrew

Did the place that did it make claims about what was going to happen, or is this something your customer just decided to do? Clearly it wasn't a good idea to take an assembled guitar and freeze it. If the people who did the freezing thought it was, did they offer any kind of guarantee on not breaking the guitar?

I wouldn't think pickups or circuit boards would take well to being frozen at those tempratures.

[salvarsan]

No iron contains any significant carbon. When iron contains any significant carbon it is called steel. I've seen research that indicates that cryogenic treatment of iron offers no improvements. It was a long time ago so I don't have the reference available. But before I trouble with a search I'll ask you, instead, to show me that iron, or even alnico, is improved with cryogenic treatment.

Chuck, you're quibbling and digging in your heels because you got called on something you overlooked. BTW, I said "changed" not improved so quit putting words in my mouth.

Most of us are impervious to reason, let alone new ideas, in the absence of persuasion less than a 2-by-4 smartly applied to the noggin or the nutsack.

Is this a 2-by-4 I see before me?

Those distinctions between iron and steel are both arbitrary and misleading, not even deceptively close to being useful.

When I say iron, I mean an element between manganese and cobalt on the periodic table with 26 protons in the nucleus and having 55.8g/mol isotopic average atomic weight. Anything 95% Fe or higher is technically iron, whatever you want call it.

AlNiCo is 50% iron, but they don't call it AlNiCoFe -- the name is trivial and arbitrary. Neodymium magnets are 72% iron and 1% boron but they don't call it FeNdB (more often Nd₂Fe₁₄B, but I digress).

Pickup makers here regularly use 1010 and 1018 "steel" slugs in pickups, synonyms for iron containing 0.10% and 0.18% carbon. They also note sonic differences between the two. Cast iron contains 2-4% carbon, an order of magnitude higher, yet it is still called iron.

If 0.1 to 0.2% carbon in mostly-iron slugs can make a sonic difference, then cryogenic treatment also affects it.

The alnico alloy microstructure changes, as was noted in results of the second search string on "carbon in alnico". For that matter, the difference between Alnico 5 and 7 is purely one of microstructure, not alloy constituent proportions. That cryogenic treatment changes a pickup's sound shouldn't even be under contention -- the science is more predictive than suggestive.

The issue is whether someone decides that the change is desirable and has the gumption to test it.

[big_teee]

Is the SD blackout a epoxy sealed pickup?
If so I guess there is no repair, and would have to be replaced with a non-cryo pickup? lol

[Chuck H]

Hurray for you. You figured out how to use Google! Who's a big boy?

The problem is that you're just spouting numbers without assigning any relevance to them. I happen to KNOW that mild steel and iron are virtually unaffected by cryogenic treatment. I know this because I already learned it. Now it's your turn to go learn it.

If alnico's grain structure is affected by cryogenic treatment that's fine with me. They didn't include alnico in any of the tests I read. That's one of the things about cryogenics, just because it affects some alloys doesn't mean it will significantly affect other similar alloys. But I'll wager that any changes are purely physical. I have a hard time believing that the magnetic properties would be changed in any significant way. I have an even harder time believing that anyone could hear it. But if you need a magnet that exhibits more wear resistance and tensile strength, and alnico is improved by cryogenic treatment, go ahead and cryo your alnico. I would suggest doing it before assembling the pickup for reasons stated previously. Further, if all you got from your recent research is the notion that all steel is actually iron and therefore iron with carbon in it is the same as steel with respect to cryogenics you are deluded and need to learn more about it. The nature of carbon in iron is not the same as it is in steel. Steel is an iron/carbon alloy but that doesn't make it iron. It's steel. Cast iron can contain significant carbon but it's present in the form of an impurity. Steel is rendered more pure and with a finer grain. Iron is comparably course with very little grain orientation to begin with. Yada, yada, etc. Just go read about it.

You still haven't presented anything to strengthen your position. Perhaps you need to add more 2-by-4's. Get them cryogenically treated if you like.

[J M Fahey]

Fact is, stating "the guitar got cryogenically treatde" PERIOD, with not an atom of data, not even opinion added is useless, a nullity in itself.
Nothing is even claimed as a result!!

As useful and relevant as stating:
* my guitar got steamed
* my guitar got stolen
* my guitar is getting old
* my guitar got crushed by a steamroller
.....
SO WHAT ???????????????????????

When and *IF* a claim is made, it can be discussed, but until then .....