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Thread: Klemt Echolette E-51 trim pots and tubes location

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    Klemt Echolette E-51 trim pots and tubes location

    Hi everyone.

    This is my first post here. Very nice forum. I have a little analog gear repair shop, i started thsi year.

    I've had an old KLEMT Echolette E51 for many years that needs a bit os love!

    It needs replacement of the filter capacitors and a tune up, but acctually it is in pretty good shape for such an old beast.

    Its a complete pain in the ass to work on this unit because it it almost impossible to disassemble. I honestely dont have a clue how they were able to make it like this.

    The thing is that the pots and tubes are completely unlabeled in my unit, i dont know if this is the case for other units. The tubes are easy acctualy, as i have the schematic. But the pots arent that easy.

    Also is there a specific way to bias the recording heads?

    Another thing that bothers me is the way my record head number 1 pot behaves, if i go CCW all the way the unit starts to self oscillate really fast instead of shuting off the echoes. I see in the schematic that this pot is different than the others and that it is somehow connected to the regeneration circuit. What was the point of this? I solved this annoying problem (or not) by unsoldering one of the pot lugs. But i wonder what was the purpose of this in the first place.

    Thanks and sorry for such a long post (and my bad english).

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    No need to apologise for the post and welcome by the way.. Your English is good and I don't have a second language so who am I to judge !! :-)
    Wow You almost need to speak German to deal with the Klempt.
    I am just giving you a link as I am not an expert on this.
    I hope this is some help.

    Echolette NG51 Tape Loop Echo | ReVamp Blog


    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by oc disorder; 07-16-2014 at 10:58 AM.

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    Thanks very much, very helpfull.
    I thing i got all that i was missing from that link.

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    http://music-electronics-forum.com/i...attach/gif.gif


    R76 is the hum balance pot. It was very sensitive on the Echolette I looked at recently.

    Doug
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    Quote Originally Posted by nisios View Post
    Hi everyone.



    Also is there a specific way to bias the recording heads?

    .


    You bias the heads by adjusting the variable capacitors located on the end of the chassis. You really should use an oscilloscope to do this since the oscillator runs at about 60 KHz. Heads 1, 2, and 3 should be set to 60, 90 and 120 volts respectively.

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    Hi,

    Thanks for the info.
    Looking at the schematic i can only see a reference for the specified capacitance in the bias and not a specific voltage as you indicate. Is there some sort of service manual for these units im missing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nisios View Post
    Hi,

    Thanks for the info.
    Looking at the schematic i can only see a reference for the specified capacitance in the bias and not a specific voltage as you indicate. Is there some sort of service manual for these units im missing?
    I do not know of any service manual. I got my information from Bobby Staedel. He is the world's expert on these echos. He runs a repair business in Germany. You can Google his name to get to his website.

    When you adjust the bias you should use a fairly long non-conducting screwdriver. The capacitors will sense the proximity of your hand and you get a slightly wrong setting.

    There is an owners manual, but it is not a lot of help as far as repairs are concerned. If you send me a personal message with an email address I can send you a PDF of the manual.

    Also, think you mentioned replacing the filter caps in your original post. I do not know of any source for the required caps in a size that will fit in the space of the original caps. I had to replace the caps on one of my Echolettes because the solder terminal broke off. The only suitable cans I could find were larger in diameter. I was able to locate on in the original place, but had to mount to other one at the far end of the chassis and connect it with wiring. It worked fine, but is certainly far from original.

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    I already sent you a PM, thanks!

    I already replaced the filtering caps, although i didi it with 47uF ones and i think i will increse it to 68uF just to get a bit less ripple.
    They are just regular electrolytics connected under the metal chassis. I left the old metal ones in place, just disconnected them.

    I got rig of a lot of noise with the new caps (and i also substituted the old diode bridge). I also changed a couple more electrolytics i had "easy" access and a couple of paper capacitors. In the end i got the unit runnig pretty smooth, no more crackeling noises and excessive hum. Im trying to make some new tape now as the old one is pretty screwed now. That will further bring general noise down.

    I had to change the input gain pots, unfortunately for some regular alpha ones, wich are not like the originals, but thats ok.

    I'm tempted to change the "Original Signal" trim pot for a regular pot i can more easily ajust while playing.

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    The manual is on its way.

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    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nisios View Post
    I've had an old KLEMT Echolette E51 for many years...
    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    So future passers-by are aware, the schematic posted is for the NG-51, and not the E-51.
    But it's at least close and something to work with!

    PS: No offence to OC, since I was going to put the same thing up, only his copy is cleaner!

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    Start simple...then go deep!

    "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

    "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

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    Old Timer oc disorder's Avatar
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    How about this one Mr Texan ...?

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    'cept there's no reference to Klempt but I assume it can be a genetic term these days..

    I presume the coils are tweaked for max resonance using one of those nylon/plastic slug adjusters

    Can anyone banish my ignorance re why the record heads have different value tunable caps there ?
    Seems like 60pF, 120pF and a 200pF with a fixed 100 in parallel ?

    I've seen hams using grid dip meters to "tune their slugs" (almost sounds like barnyard talk..) when I was about 12.
    I presume it's related to that path...
    and one more question anyone how can you tell the correct polarity of the heads as the two coil wires are independent of the shield which is just connected to the heads metalwork... like a balanced mic. the wires on the one I have seen look the same colour...
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    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    How about this one Mr Texan ...?
    -ATTACH-
    Tha's puuurrty right thar!!
    Nice find =)

    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    Can anyone banish my ignorance re why the record heads have different value tunable caps there ?
    Seems like 60pF, 120pF and a 200pF with a fixed 100 in parallel ?
    Only a guess here, but I'm curious too.

    From the looks of it, it strikes me as a way to tune the carrier (modulation) frequency of the record heads. I have my suspicions as to why, but I'll stop there so I don't derail (both myself and the thread lol).

    I also noticed that the figures you inquire about appear to be alternate values (with the primary spec being 150pf at each one so that all 3 are the same on one unit, and perhaps different on another). Perhaps there was an optional 'factory mod' version of this unit available as well with the 200pf/120pf/60pf?

    (Assuming that the R73/R72/R71 in that part of the schem correspond to the "1st head, 2nd head, 3rd head" and are simple 'level' controls on the pic of the front panel from the "ReVamp Blog" link that you kindly shared earlier)

    *Waits for someone far more experienced to chime in*

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    Start simple...then go deep!

    "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

    "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

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    I dont know but i believe one obvious adavantage of using tuneable capacitors instead of variable resistors is that, first of all, at bias frequencies you have tunable capacitors with a value of interest, second this way you are able to change the ammount of bias voltage to the head without affecting impedance at audio frequencies.

    You get two almost independent ajustments, one for audio signals and other for high frequency bias. I believe this makes the job of tuning both bias and audio signal strength to the head much more easy and stable.

    Im saying this but im not very familiar with head bias schemes, im not the expert, just my opinion looking at the schematic.

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    hum....

    I will need to have a look at mine, apparentely it doesnt do a thing, and you are telling me yours was very sensitive....
    These pots are very fragile, maybe i have a broken pot...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nisios View Post
    hum....

    I will need to have a look at mine, apparentely it doesnt do a thing,
    Firstly I should acknowledge the site I found pictures and high quality schematics on

    Echolette NG51 Tape Loop Echo | ReVamp Blog

    Secondly Nisios thanks for your interpretation/opinion re the tunable capacitors it's starting to sink in ! :-)

    Nisios re the hum , on the UK site Echolette NG51 Tape Loop Echo | ReVamp Blog

    down the bottom he mentions this

    On this last pic youíll see a heavy twisted black and white cable. Thereís a good reason for this, but you can improve matter just by tightening down bolts. The transformer is bolted to the main chassis and the main earth (ground) is connected to that. As the heaters have a centre tap to ground (via hum balance ) any problems with the chassis connection between the transformer (thatís the big brown thing on the left of the pic, with wires all over it) is big bad news for hum and background noise. The heavy black/white cable actually straps the main and the sub chasisís together, so the electrical connection of the frames isnít really important. If thatís not done, slacken the screws off to the transformer chasis, and then tighten them down again. It will shift any claggy accumulations and refresh the ground connection.
    Sometimes I use emery paper and a squirt of deoxit where bolts hold chasis together.
    This could be stopping the hum pot from "fine tuning the hum out" !!

    And A.T. I was referring to the older Echolette so I'll get on the E-51... the right page now with the attached.
    It appears Dynacord took over and redrew the schematic.. it seems almost identical ,well apart from the jacks !
    R73/R72/R71 are the pre-sets see the attached.
    Dunno why I thought a variable capacitor had a slug !
    It appears all those "varicaps" are 150pF and the other values are ones the 150pF's are adjusted to.
    What I thought was an AC sign is in fact a tilde ~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    " in mathematics the tilde mark used to indicate an approximate value"
    Having 3 record heads that simultaneously record on to the tape I find a bit hard to get my head around !
    The capacitance values appear to be multiples (i.e. freq doubling ?) I'm missing something.. perhaps it's my brain...!
    What I am wondering is why they have to be set at different values. and suggesting maybe to do with the sound on sound approach..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by oc disorder; 07-21-2014 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    And A.T. I was referring to the older Echolette so I'll get on the E-51... the right page now with the attached.
    It appears Dynacord took over and redrew the schematic.. it seems almost identical ,well apart from the jacks !
    Nice to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    R73/R72/R71 are the pre-sets see the attached.
    Dunno why I thought a variable capacitor had a slug !
    It appears all those "varicaps" are 150pF and the other values are ones the 150pF's are adjusted to.
    What I thought was an AC sign is in fact a tilde ~ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    " in mathematics the tilde mark used to indicate an approximate value"
    Ok.. so nix the 'front panel' guess. TY for the pic! That tells a whole different story.

    I had also wondered about the tilde, and was initially thinking "tune to" as well, but what made me 86 that idea was the top cap being ~200pf. You can't tune a 150pf cap up to a value of 200 that's outside of it's abilities last I knew. 150pf down to 120pf, np. 150pf down to 60pf fine. (Nevermiiiind. Forgot it's strapped to the other 150pf) 300pf down to 200pf...np! lol (Like a dog with a bone sometimes..."what do you mean there's another bone?!! I'm focused on the one in my mouth!")

    So that's what made me guess that there might be an alternate mod/model issue. Wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by oc disorder View Post
    Having 3 record heads that simultaneously record on to the tape I find a bit hard to get my head around !
    The capacitance values appear to be multiples (i.e. freq doubling ?) I'm missing something.. perhaps it's my brain...!
    What I am wondering is why they have to be set at different values. and suggesting maybe to do with the sound on sound approach..
    2nd that question!

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    Start simple...then go deep!

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    "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

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    I biased the heads accordinf to the voltages Kazooman gave and i got the unit working great, i noticed that the frequency response is much better propperly biased. Man you can really put huge bias voltage on those heads in the order or 300/400V if misbiased, never ocurred to me you could do that without frying the heads or start arcing all over.

    Now that everything is biased i just need to make a new tape loop, but i still have a Hum problem.

    I thought the hum balancing pot was dead because it did nothing, so i changed it, easyer than testing in circuit in this case. The new one is the same, no effect on hum.

    There can be two things happening, the hum is lo loud right now that i cant hear the balancing pot effect, wich is what i think is happening, or i have some problem on the balancing pot connection to the filaments (i dont think so, very simple fillament circuit...)

    So i still have some more poking to do....

    Anyone knows why do these guys make these units wich such high impedance allover? like every pot is 1M Ohm, resistors all really huge, 10M Ohm input impedance.... That makes the unit ultra susceptible to hum and noise....were these made to connect directely to the capsule of a condenser mic? Because huge input impedance is good for mic capsules because they are capacitive and it forms a filter, but with resitive inputs whats the point?

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    I'm thinking your right OC...it's gotta be to do with the sound on sound aspect.

    I kinda had inklings along those lines earlier as well, but had hoped someone would drop in on this thread and shed some light on the operational theory before I went off into left field with guessing. lol

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    Start simple...then go deep!

    "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

    "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

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    There is an article in "ReVamp Blog" Echolette NG51 Tape Loop Echo which advises how to adjust the hum cancel pot. You will need to have your amp turned up a fair way and all the controls on your E51 turned down. You should be able to hear the hum increase and decrease when turning R76.

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    Thinking about sound on sound, it's not really that complicated as you would realize that multiple echos are just repeat recordings of the first echo. There would certainly be a deterioration as well distortion in all subsequent repeats (echos) but we are listening to guitar music not hi-fi audio.

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    I find it easier to follow signal paths in the E51 circuit as compared to the NG51 & S. The layout of the E51 circuit diagram is more easy to follow.

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    One thing that has always puzzled me is the nomenclature of the pre-set pots, especially R51, R52 & R46. It would make circuit description to lay persons a lot easier.

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    E51 manual

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazooman View Post
    The manual is on its way.
    Hi, just wondering if you would be so kind as to send me the E51 manual? I have repaired quite a few of the Klemt tape echos both for personal use as well as for other guitarists and having compared them to quite a number of tape echo units I believe them to be both more versatile as well as better constructed than other European tape echos. Have not been able to compare them to the US made model but as these appear to be similar to an Echoplex I would think they would be rather limited in their echo capabilities. Cheers, Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Hi, just wondering if you would be so kind as to send me the E51 manual? I have repaired quite a few of the Klemt tape echos both for personal use as well as for other guitarists and having compared them to quite a number of tape echo units I believe them to be both more versatile as well as better constructed than other European tape echos. Have not been able to compare them to the US made model but as these appear to be similar to an Echoplex I would think they would be rather limited in their echo capabilities. Cheers, Mike
    I PM'd you asking for an email address. Reply and I will send you the file I have. It is the NG51.

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    Echolette manual

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazooman View Post
    I PM'd you asking for an email address. Reply and I will send you the file I have. It is the NG51.
    Hi, my email address is ju26284@gmail.com As I stated in my replies I have serviced/repaired quite a number of these as well as numerous Copicats. The Echolette tape echos are really straight forward in their design but very very difficult to work on. The pots on the circuit boards are a real pain and unfortunately they should be replaced as a matter of course when any work is done on these units. The volume and the tone pots are also troublesome but with a little ingenuity they can be replaced with readily available pots of the correct curve. Anyway I'll sop rambling and look forward to your information. Regards, Mickey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    You bias the heads by adjusting the variable capacitors located on the end of the chassis. You really should use an oscilloscope to do this since the oscillator runs at about 60 KHz. Heads 1, 2, and 3 should be set to 60, 90 and 120 volts respectively.
    Hi, hello, I write from Italy.
    Sorry if i recover this thread, but don't want to open another one with the (almost) same topic...
    As for the bias tape voltage: where i have to measure it? I have not an oscilloscope (maybe later in time), can i do that with the meter and how?

    Thanks a lot!

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    "As for the bias tape voltage: where i have to measure it?"
    At the junction of the 100k resistor ,tape head and adjustable trim capacitor.

    "can i do that with the meter and how?"
    If your meter can read high frequency A.C. one probe on the chassis ground
    and the other on the above junction.

    As it is a high frequency A.C. (approx 60kHz?) average multimeters may not be able to read it.
    There should be aprox 270vac on the oscillator coil and on the common to the adjustable
    trim caps.

    If you cant read that 270 , we have no way of knowing if the circuit is faulty or your meter
    cant read the high frequency ac voltage.
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    Last edited by oc disorder; 05-13-2015 at 12:18 AM.

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    thank you so much oc disorder !!!
    And yes, my poor wretched multimeter can't arrive at those frequencies, i checked before its specifications but I knew the answer ...
    So it is better if i am looking a scope...
    I'm passionate about Echo but now I'm starting to get interested also in how they are made .. and I don't understand why in this model (but also in the Dynacord Mini that I have here beside) there is only one cable for each tape head for play / rec (while the erase there are two) ... and by the way this cable seems a shielded cable, not the cable itself within ... arghhh! how much confusion that I have!

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    thanks again oc!
    In your pic seems there are two cable for the tape head (not the erase).. the red one and the black.. is correct? Or you would tell me that in one cable that seems "only a shields cable" there is an another cable inside?
    however when i look the rec/play tape head on Echolette i see only one cable (shields ..) for each tape
    Where am I wrong?Click image for larger version. 

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    The cable to the record/playback heads are shielded cables so it appears there is only one cable but in fact the active lead is shielded by (usually) a woven outer covering which also acts as the head signal ground path.
    Exactly what are you trying to achieve? Could you please describe the faults you are experiencing with the Echolette.

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  33. #33
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    Hi Michey,
    i've just replaced tube and tape for echolette. The problem is that when the echo effect is bypassed the sound is clear and beauty, when i switch (fast or normal) echo the sound is distorted.
    So i think that the cause is an wrong bias setup for this kind of tape? Is possibile?
    And so the questions i've written above are to known next steps for bias setup.

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  34. #34
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    Hi,
    When you say the sound is distorted do you mean all of the sound or just the echo sound. You have three echo recording level controls, so if you turn them all down is the sound still distorted and when you increase the levels one at a time is the distortion more evident in one recording head?
    Do you have the correct schematic for the echolette? If so we can then go discuss each stage at a time so that you can understand what is going on in the circuit when the echolette is operating.
    Cheers, Mickey

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  35. #35
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    Hi,
    is distorted only the echo sound (the "bypassed" sound is ok, clean). If i turn down all the three control of echo recording level the sound is clean. If i increase every control one at time it seems to be that the distortion is the same on every head.
    The schematic is the same that oc disorder posted above on 07-16-2014 (Echolette S Type NG51)
    Thanks again Mickey, too kind (and all the others) !!!

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