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Thread: Here is a new music portal!

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    Here is a new music portal!

    Hi music lovers.

    Here is a new electronic music website.

    http://www.ilovehardwell.com

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Get some real instruments. That stuff's crap.

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    In a way, and for millions, electronic music as played with a world class sound system IS a real instrument that really is a live performance. I never cared for recording electronic music my self but it is hard not to get caught up in the experience of a well done set in a massive dance festival. No one there would think it any less of a musical experience than Mozart lovers would feel towards their preference.
    I would never listen to electronic music at home but it was not intended to be, it is big and needs a big stage, and big audience to get the full impact and intent of the music. Standing in the middle of 25,000 dancers, a good DJ can create an atmosphere that is almost unique in its impact and influence on the audience's emotions, movements, energy and impressions. From your comments I assume you have not experienced a big dance festival. It is more common in Europe but the US, Asia and other regions have their fair share of fans. By the way, Hardwell is one of the new rising stars in international big festivals.
    I prefer small dance clubs for my weekly exercise but attend at least one dance big festival each year in some country and really enjoy it. It is not songs or artists as much as experience of the interactive event that never existed before or after that moment where thousands of people, gigantic clean system, a suitable space and creative input from the stage combine to present an experience not felt any other way. I guess the analogy for similar feeling of community energy and unity is closest to that DeadHeads got from Dead performances. In neither case does it do it justice to hear it from recordings, it has to be experienced live. Don't even bother listening to recordings, on any system that could fit in a home, and with less than a few thousands others in the same environment. A good DJ "plays " the audience just as much as sound generators to create the experience.
    One thing observation over the year, real dance fans are one of the best crowds, these are not poser disco goers where flash, posture and attitude rule. You will not see guns or violence or even attitude, and the big dance events are probably the safest experience you can find involving thousands of people.
    If you have a chance, go to a big dance festival and see if your opinion of the music, people and atmosphere is not a whole lot more favorable coming out than going in. You will definitely not be indifferent.

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    In a way, and for millions, electronic music ...
    You make good points, but still even you admit recorded "electronica" is pretty lame. I will admit though that utilizing the technology as an art form is becoming more accepted. I'm biased though.
    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    ...If you have a chance, go to a big dance festival and see if your opinion of the music, people and atmosphere is not a whole lot more favorable coming out than going in. You will definitely not be indifferent.
    Millions of people treat it as a lifestyle. They're very similar to Deadhead's in that respect. The EDC happens every year just up the road from where I live. I did some stagehand stuff there a couple times, so I've seen it in it's largest format with well over 100k in attendance. It's an Ecstasy fueled celebration of redundancy. The only thing keeping me there was the paycheck.

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    Your "old fart" is showing John. ;P

    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    I'm biased though.
    And I respect that you acknowledge and admit that. lol
    I'm much the same in many other respects.

    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    Millions of people treat it as a lifestyle. They're very similar to Deadhead's in that respect.
    And there's millions that dont. I saw quite the sub-culture that you're referring to around DFW back in the 90's, so I'm not disputing your claim at all. It's definitely there to some degree. But there's a lot more that appreciate it for what it is, and IMHO it takes the same talent to put together something that creates emotion, regardless of the instrument (or accessories) used.

    There's also a ton of technically proficient folks that use a 'real instrument' (as you imply above), that couldn't write a melody or evoke any type of emotion whatsoever.

    Think how the "old folks" then, thought of Hendrix ("that's crap. why's there so much distortion? why's it sound like he's choking a child [wah-wah]?")

    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    The EDC happens every year just up the road from where I live. I did some stagehand stuff there a couple times, so I've seen it in it's largest format with well over 100k in attendance. It's an Ecstasy fueled celebration of redundancy. The only thing keeping me there was the paycheck.
    And I'd imagine the USA's 'interpretation' of a dance/electronic music festival is quite different than one in the EU/other areas of the world.

    It's an Ecstasy fueled celebration of redundancy.
    Love the quote, but look at Woodstock. Compare as appropriate. lol
    It's all music if it brings an emotion/makes someone happy!

    Love ya John! *grins*
    Just had to yank your chain man.

    I do respect that ya don't care for it though.
    I can only take so much myself, but there is some out there that's really good. And just like my 'preferred styles' of music to listen to, a LOT more that isn't good at all. But there's no disputing that it's legit and it's music! At least in the world I live in.

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    Funny how life works sometimes...

    I stumbled across an interesting read (that's eerily on target here) while I was looking to help another thread with schematics for a Sound City 30.

    Dave Grohl, Sound City, and The Great Analog Debate - UniqueSquared Pro Audio Blog

    Basically, it's simple truths re: nostalgia vs industry vs financial vs generational...

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    Interesting article, a subject I have written about in articles and blog posts a number of times in the last few decades. I got out of the music business after many years due to digital, directly and indirectly. The main reason was supporting a large production facility larger than Sound City, with more gold, after the record labels had all been taken over by larger entertainment companies who put lawyers and accountant in as top management. They concluded that they only wanted artists with current hits and were only willing to invest in new artists about 1/10 the historic average in the late 1980-early 1990s.
    A new group would be given a 1 album deal, and $25,000 and told to go buy some ADATs or home gear and record it themselves. Suddenly even $25k was considered generous while a large production facility with top pros in every position from reception to maintenance was not possible unless one became a production company doing in-house projects to license to labels. That is why the majority of pros with real chops left the industry in the 90s, could not feed the family. In the years before that most of the production talent, the varied teams that made up the production process of a great record was all concentrated in a few studios. At any given time 8-9 different studios accounted for 80% of top records, with a varying cast of studios but still limited to around that number. There were thousands of competent demo studios because labels before the 90s paid good money for 3-5 song demos not one to see how the group worked but to flesh out some of the songs. About 10 demos were recorded for every major label release. There was a two tiered system, demo studios dominated one niche and did not do albums and album studios did not do demos so there was a non-competitive symbiotic relationship between them. When the production talent is concentrated in just a number of top studio, you can see how the production teams could be expected to be pretty darn good.
    They were since the best and brightest could be picked from. But it took that concentration to generate the high rates of recording successes that existed in the 50s through late 80sm where only 8-9% of all major label releases failed to recoup in the first year. If foreign licensing was added into the mix, almost no records lost money. After the suits took over the labels by '92, the successes became rare and in fact only 10-12% made a profit and a much small number of major label releases compared to decades before meant there was a major shift the way the business worked and what share the studio,producer, artist got out of it. By that time the whole industry had collapsed and took FM radio and touring industries with them. The relationship between touring, radio and labels was severed in 1989 so each industry tanked.
    The suits did not want acts that did not have hits, even if the journeyman acts, the household names that consistently sold 300k-500k to strong fan bases built up over years were all released. They wanted hits and did not care about how those released acts were no-brainer modest profit makers since they sold without any promotion. Those acts were the base income for the industry for 60 years. The biggest single blunder by the suits was to stop promoting through radio as regional markets and instead treat the US as one market reached "better" by MTV in 1988-89. That shift raised the cost and risk of failure by 10-20 times for each record. It meant the key advantage records had over other industries was the extreme efficiency of Just in Time Inventory Control that helped prevent the labels from ever being stuck with unsold excess inventory. Something they invented in the late 40s and later was adopted by the Japanese in auto making that crushed Detroit. To work it needed to have regional markets that did not depend on the exact same product in the bins at the same time. A typical pressing was 24k records for a region and repeating that until sales started to stall and then it would be pushed, both radio play and inventory shifted to another region.
    After the shift to MTV as one national market, to have any record in any bin available to buy, it meant filling every record bin in the country with a few copies at the same exact time. So initial pressings had to be 500,000 or more even before they found out if anyone at all wanted it. It also meant each single picked by the labels had to have a video that cost 10 times more to produce than the song itself. That, again was before anyone knew which song if any really should have been a single. So it is surprising they survived at all. Radio never recovered and died, and became giveaway priced fodder for consolidators like Clear Channel which bought licenses for a couple thousand dollars that in 1985 were worth $3million. Right wing talk radio and sports because the only viable use of radio.

    Anyway, I did not have a problem with digital per se, it is a tool and the song matters, gear does not. I bought one of the first Sony DASH 24 track digital decks(1984 $124k for the deck and $19k for the remote) mainly as a rental for $1200-1500 a day.
    My biggest grip with digital was the process and work flow encouraged really poor song writing. Analog production was somewhat organic and flowed much like the song creation for centuries.
    Digital adopted a random access model that left the lyrics and meaning of the song to be tacked on at the very end. Starting the song writing with a beat box and layering really changed song writing and it has not been for the better. It is harder than ever to spot a well crafted song that means something due to the rhythmic foundation of song writing whereas traditionally melody, which has an entirely different impact on the brain, was the foundation and arrangements followed. In most cases, the entire production team knew the meaning and intent of the song from day one because of the lyrics and melody foundation. So we always knew if we were on the right track because from day one the basics were heard and the song made sense.
    As far as the importance of consoles, like the Neve in the article, it is a non-issue the same way guitar players insist their success is based on which tubes are used or which capacitors are used. Nonsense. A compelling, evocative song makes itself the new reference point of what is desired, not the "tone". Tone became desired solely because it evokes memory of the song that introduced it to the seeker trying to recapture the feeling in their own work. All the "hot tones" someone can point to, we new and rejected by most people at one time. But all can trace their "conversion" to an individual song that meant something to the listener happened to have it.

    I like analog because it was a fun process of recording and it fit me, I hate recording with computers and prefer to sweep streets than do it. Digital tape, r-t-r was fine for me but my chops were developed by getting analog to sound less sucky and the tricks and techniques did not translate well to digital which had its own set of suckiness. What turns song writing has taken is the biggest disappointment in music however. A Great song transcend gear and technology but bad songs suck regardless. More shitty songs are recorded today because more people can record for almost nothing and never have to get good to do it. So the mass of bad songs that were produced solely because they were cheap enough to do, whereas in the old days someone with some chops had to pass judgement before the sizable investment was made, meant that not that many horrible songs made it to the market. Now, there is no one with taste or judgement is in the process from song writing, recording and release. Essentially song writing, production, arrangements, and marketing is all done by one person and no matter how great they think they are, no one is an expert in each of these different fields. Before, a team of highly talented people were part of the creation of the music and there was a much higher level of competence in the room.
    Good songs have always been the hardest part of music but now it is so much harder to find well crafted songs in the sea of crap solely because there is so much more out that never would have had to been sifted through to find the good songs. The major labels release very few records and they focus primarily on cross-over celebrity stars and not music at all.

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    Thanks for chiming in Stan. Again, amazingly insightful information for those of us who weren't there (or at least privy to the inside).

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    There was a two tiered system, demo studios dominated one niche and did not do albums and album studios did not do demos so there was a non-competitive symbiotic relationship between them.
    I do recall that! Back in the late 70s-early 80s, I had older friends that were in local bands in San Antonio that would often talk about getting money together for demos...and bought several (still have a few of those tapes actually) from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    After the suits took over the labels by '92, the successes became rare and in fact only 10-12% made a profit and a much small number of major label releases compared to decades before meant there was a major shift the way the business worked and what share the studio,producer, artist got out of it.
    That's because they'd long since lost nurturing 'talent', and started looking for the crap that'd gaurentee millions in short order.

    I have to wonder if it didn't start even earlier, say, with the boy band crap in the 80s? [NKOTB, Menudo, New Edition, etc]

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    By that time the whole industry had collapsed and took FM radio and touring industries with them. The relationship between touring, radio and labels was severed in 1989 so each industry tanked.
    Would love to hear more from you on this!

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    The suits did not want acts that did not have hits, even if the journeyman acts, the household names that consistently sold 300k-500k to strong fan bases built up over years were all released. They wanted hits and did not care about how those released acts were no-brainer modest profit makers since they sold without any promotion. Those acts were the base income for the industry for 60 years.
    Nothing like building your own casket! =D
    Serves them right too. As painful as it is to have to endure the 'rebirth' of an industry, it's SO pleasing to watch the suits flush.
    After watching them rip off both the artists and consumers for so many years, it's lovely to see their greed cost them the entire industry.

    I couldn't believe what entailed a 'standard Motown contract' when I learned about it in the VH interviews on YouTube. And still can't believe that it went on as recently as the late 70s when Van Halen got signed. Still taking 10% off the top for breakage on a format that was at death's door (vinyl) *at that time*??? Cassettes were already in full force, and Cd's were on the doorstep. It's not like the 50-60s where vinyl was 100% of the medium. But they still took the money off the top like it was 100%. Greedy $#%^s.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Radio never recovered and died, and became giveaway priced fodder for consolidators like Clear Channel which bought licenses for a couple thousand dollars that in 1985 were worth $3million.
    That's just mind-blowing. What 'licenses' are you referring to? General broadcast rights? Full artist/label libraries? Or...?

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Anyway, I did not have a problem with digital per se, it is a tool and the song matters, gear does not.
    Spot on. And whole-heartedly agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    My biggest grip with digital was the process and work flow encouraged really poor song writing. Analog production was somewhat organic and flowed much like the song creation for centuries.
    Not having ever professionally recorded anything, I'm at a disadvantage here. And I've never appreciated the reason for all the middle-men as a result.

    Recording engineer
    producer
    mixing
    mastering
    and on and on...

    The whole process has always seemed artificially convoluted to me. (But again, I'm realizing as I make these comments, and that we are where we are [MEF] that I get alot of the reasons behind why alot of them are needed for the average musician, as they have no clue about normalization, one frequency stepping on another, phasing, etc. They just play. Whereas, I just take them for granted, and I expect that I'll account for it as I go, just by my nature/knowledge.)

    So I guess basically it's not so much that I don't appreciate them. I just disdain such a finite and closed loop system.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Digital adopted a random access model that left the lyrics and meaning of the song to be tacked on at the very end.
    I blame the change in intelligence level/attention spans personally. As well as the change in the public in what they'll accept/buy. The whole common denominator has dropped in most cases. At least in the US. But I know it's not just us...but I can't speak to the others firsthand, so I won't!

    If they didn't buy/swallow this crap, it wouldn't be marketed/sold. No demand, no supply necessary.

    But instead we have a population of folks that prefer to turn idiots into celebrities. "She Bangs She Bangs" Korean guy...really? He has an album. REALLY??? >.<

    Couple that with all the crap that is on YouTube, much less on TV (Looking at you American Idol/offshoots).

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Starting the song writing with a beat box and layering really changed song writing and it has not been for the better.
    Have to disagree with you here however, as I can't see that as being any different whatsoever than a drummer laying out a beat that someone starts plucking a guitar/bass to...then the singer says "Hey! Run with that a moment!!" It's all 'inspiration'.

    Unless you mean those that rely on nothing but canned tracks, and not tailoring them to fit the song as appropriate. Then yes, I'd totally get your point, and again, agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    It is harder than ever to spot a well crafted song that means something due to the rhythmic foundation of song writing whereas traditionally melody, which has an entirely different impact on the brain, was the foundation and arrangements followed.
    I completely agree. It's an art in/of itself that's getting closer and closer to completely forgotten currently. Hopefully though, like most revered arts, it will come full circle. And the sooner the better. It'd be a shame to lose that level of songcraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    In most cases, the entire production team knew the meaning and intent of the song from day one because of the lyrics and melody foundation. So we always knew if we were on the right track because from day one the basics were heard and the song made sense.
    The only problem with that 'methodology' is the Motown sound.
    And we had similar pigeon-holing in the rock world too, it just never got the same level of moniker (as least AFAIR offhand). But alot of bands sound like alot of others through the 70s, then the 80s, then.... So there is something to be said again about the same folks producing the same crap. There was more variety in the musical content/lyrics however. But production levels were the same old same old on so much...

    If you stick to only one 'process' then everyone that goes in that blender comes out smelling like it to a large degree. :/
    That, or I'm missing the point you're trying to make (which is quite probably more likely knowing myself).

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    What turns song writing has taken is the biggest disappointment in music however. A Great song transcend gear and technology but bad songs suck regardless.
    Truth!

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Essentially song writing, production, arrangements, and marketing is all done by one person and no matter how great they think they are, no one is an expert in each of these different fields.
    True again! However, it's easier now for those with backgrounds such as ours (speaking cumulatively of MEF) to be able to put out a product with technical proficiency, and be able to grow into an area that we were previously locked out of!

    Not to mention all the sub-genres/new talent that are being exposed/listened to by folks that wouldn't have otherwise done so, simply because they were SO tired of the same old same old that has been spewing forth from the record conglomerates/AOR for at least two decades now (in my case).

    I wanted to cry when a local 'record store' (which was actually more of less of a 'front' for a major A&R guy in the St Louis area to unload/sell all of his/her boxes and boxes of promo copies) was understandably 'forcibly' closed down. I'm amazed it was there as many years as it was to be honest. I'd go in there and spend quite literally HOURS previewing new music at their listening stations. Primarily because all of the stuff on the radio sucked. Picked out *many* 'winners' out of there too, as often times, I'd have bought the promo copy, and then the band goes national. So I was proud to have an ear for it. But at the same time, a lot of stuff that I bought and love, never made it big, and I would have never been exposed to if not for that store! Until years later and the "invasion of the internet".

    But again, I acknowledge that I'm unique in that aspect, as even my friends that "love music" gave me a hard time about it when I did that! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    Good songs have always been the hardest part of music but now it is so much harder to find well crafted songs in the sea of crap solely because there is so much more out that never would have had to been sifted through to find the good songs. The major labels release very few records and they focus primarily on cross-over celebrity stars and not music at all.
    True enough.

    But personally? I'd rather have to navigate a wider path to find a road worth turning down, then to have a more limited selection of finely tuned regurgitation.

    What I wish we had, was a central source to peruse it all. I'd spend hours on end there. Literally. Then I could buy as I like, and ideally with the money going directly to the artist. Minimal middle-men, and the money going to the person/people that deserve(s) it most.

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    That's a good article. I have a friend who was a very successful award winning producer in the 70's, and another who manages a studio currently, so I can personally relate to industry pro's from both ends of the spectrum.

    Although a 2" - 24 track deck is a wonderful thing, listening to a 96/192 bit recording on a big playback system will make you a believer. Like discussed in the article, what sickens me mostly is things like autotune, or pitch correction that with a couple of mouse clicks dehumanizes the performance. Perhaps what the future has in store for us is this sterile, processed, unimaginative, "perfect" sound, but I'd rather hear The Doors, or Jefferson Airplane coming from my loudspeakers. I guess I am turning into the stodgy curmudgeon who shakes his fist at new trends.

    Quote Originally Posted by from the article
    ...It feels like a reassuring pat on the back to the aged disco hating rocker who laments in lonely despair about how today’s music is not real music.
    <made me smile>

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    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    I guess I am turning into the stodgy curmudgeon who shakes his fist at new trends.
    I've been there for some years now.

    Hi John, welcome to the mud!
    My name's Rob, but just call me 'Stick'.
    Damn fine to meet you!

    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    ...It feels like a reassuring pat on the back to the aged disco hating rocker who laments in lonely despair about how today’s music is not real music.
    <made me smile>
    I actually laughed out loud.
    The REALLY funny part? I almost quoted that exact line for you...and instead you picked out!

    Seriously though, thanks for not taking offense!
    Funnier still? I'm pretty much of the same opinion. Alot of "today's" music is crap. But I try to keep an open mind across the board.

    The odd part? I LOVE funk, but hate disco. Talk about a thin line to walk in the late 70s/early 80s. :X lol

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Have to disagree with you here however, as I can't see that as being any different whatsoever than a drummer laying out a beat that someone starts plucking a guitar/bass to...then the singer says "Hey! Run with that a moment!!" It's all 'inspiration'.
    You lose all the creative input from the drummer. The drummer with any talent is more than "Hey Bob, gimme a 4/4". The drum box will never ask if you like this or that will work, drum box never suggests. A drum box never doodles between takes and comes up with a groove.


    Off top of my mind and from my era, listen to Mitch Mitchell or Keith Moon and tell me a drum box would sound remotely similar, and further that drummers like that would not be influencing the rest of the band.

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiotexan View Post
    I've been there for some years now...
    I know what you mean. I've always considered myself pretty hip, but it's time to recalculate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiotexan View Post
    ...Seriously though, thanks for not taking offense! ...
    Not at all. It cracks me up when people get butthurt if you don't like the same music as them, or criticize their favorite artist. I'm only bothered when people think they have to share it with me by blasting their 9,000 watt car stereo when they drive by my house.

    My Daughter is a punk rocker, and has been playing in bands for 20 years. My son is so Metal that when it rains he will rust. Both of them are fine musicians in their own respect, and neither has much room for hip hop, electronica, or rap. Their favorite songs are usually the one's they've just written. I take great pride in their abilities as musician's. The lessons, and support paid huge dividends for me. It has always kept our bond strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Audiotexan View Post
    ...The odd part? I LOVE funk, but hate disco. Talk about a thin line to walk in the late 70s/early 80s. :X lol
    I've always listened to a broad mix of music. Most disco was a huge waste of vinyl. At that period in time I was listening to about "anything but".

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    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    You lose all the creative input from the drummer. The drummer with any talent is more than "Hey Bob, gimme a 4/4". The drum box will never ask if you like this or that will work, drum box never suggests. A drum box never doodles between takes and comes up with a groove.


    Off top of my mind and from my era, listen to Mitch Mitchell or Keith Moon and tell me a drum box would sound remotely similar, and further that drummers like that would not be influencing the rest of the band.
    Most of my favorite bands had two drummers! Phil Collins was a master a layering drums in the studio. Listen to "No Jacket Required" on a good set of cans and pay attention to the percussion. It's amazing.

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    Originally Posted by km6xz:
    Starting the song writing with a beat box and layering really changed song writing and it has not been for the better.
    Have to disagree with you here however, as I can't see that as being any different whatsoever than a drummer laying out a beat that someone starts plucking a guitar/bass to...then the singer says "Hey! Run with that a moment!!" It's all 'inspiration'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    You lose all the creative input from the drummer. The drummer with any talent is more than "Hey Bob, gimme a 4/4". The drum box will never ask if you like this or that will work, drum box never suggests. A drum box never doodles between takes and comes up with a groove.
    I agree with you completely that there is definitely something lost (and something to be said for human interaction being contributing factors)...I was just talking in general as to how it doesn't matter how a song starts. More importantly, the creativity or inspiration is the key. A drum track by a talented/patient programmer can still inspire, it's just different is all. Not to mention takes way longer to program. And it's not 'off the cuff'.

    To me, that in itself is the major downside/cost for the loss of human interaction. However, most drummers I've met/worked with had a short attention span anyways. Can't keep 'em quiet when you're wanting to sort a part out, kinda like us guitarists... lol

    I'm guessing I still don't understand what Stan was trying to say by the layering comment more than anything. As there's so many layering tracks with real musicians...

    Nothing against either methodology. Just that they both have a use. And just like real musicians, both can be done well, or poorly.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    "Real musicians" might lay down tracks, but look at it this way:

    DaVinci painted the Mona Lisa. I bet he could also paint his garage. That isn't the same as a garage painter trying to come up with the Mona Lisa. Sure it is a lot or work to put together a drum track. Just that drum track will never pause and say "Hey, what if right her we did this...?"


    On the other hand, I stepped into a bar one evening, and a couple friends of mine happened to be playing on stage. They were a two piece with a drum machine. I bought three drinks and had them delivered to the band.

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    I was writing about the difference in song writing, not gigging. Writing a song now is typically done by deciding and starting a basic rhythm sequence and adding in additional percussion elements. The song becomes a song at a later time as it starts to flesh out with additional layers on layers. It is a rather mechanical process that lends itself to routine steps.
    The lyrics are the very last thing created. This is the reason sometimes this process takes more time than traditional writing, despite all the automated functions; because the song is not really a song or has a meaning until the very end. It is sort of like the difference between building a house layering one board at a time versus designing a home one board at a time, the concept, meaning and aesthetics are unknown until it is finished.
    Before, the common way to write a song is to have s vision or story, lyrics or music as a framework and meaning before a single sound is recorded. It is a song before getting near a recording device or computer. Maybe not a fleshed out song but the concept is known and that allows seeing how some musical idea either helps move the concept along or hinders at every step. The architect designs a home with the overall concept, and aesthetic in mind before thinking about individual boards and their exact placement. Architects and song writers had a lot in common in that way of working before the shift to rhythm based song writing. If the architect designed like songs are written now, he would start with some door knobs, or windows and place them, or cut and place 346 2x4s to various lengths or cut the carpet and lay it before possibly a floor existed or the size of the room was known and would not know when it was a house until it was finished

    Sometimes writing occurs in the studio(in the old day, now it is usually one person with a computer to creating the song as the result of laying down the components as the first and only step until he can't think of any more to add, then it is finished as a completed entity without arrangement, production or mixing steps as before) but what is meant is that the song was fleshed out or alternative arrangements were tried but the song actually was a song before anyone opening the sound proof door into the studio. If the production team are all aware of and understand the song intent and meaning, polishing the arrangements and lyrics is a natural process and when it works everyone knows it because it makes the intent of the song more clear.
    Use of recording too early in the process has hurt lyrics the most, it often sounds like how they really were written, as tacked on layer at the end.
    Song writers who are doing it only for their own fun or expression do not have to worry about intended audience but those who want to make it a career do have to be concerned with how the message is perceived and communicates to others. Tacked on, almost an afterthought lyrics are less likely to communicate.
    One of the biggest problems with the writing technique used by most now is that the song is "produced" from the start. Its meaning is entirely the finished product of the writing process. An example would be using some sound effect or theme as a base element of the song. The song is not that song without it so it is important in its appeal. The concept or meaning of the song goes away if done a different way. For a song writer, that means no one else can do that song and if by chance it was popular, it can't be covered. For a song writer, it is a dead end if others can't do it by adding their own stamp on it so it seems like the song was the actual expression of the artist. The potential audience is limited also since it can't be covered or reinterpreted by others because the song has no core independent of the sonic elements that the writer built upon.
    So aspiring song writers take note. If you want a career and to place songs, do not produce them. A producer/artist is looking for songs that can be interpreted by the artist so it sounds like he believes it. It is the rare producer who can "unhear" sonic elements that are built into the song. What they want is a song that has a melody and meaning without specialty production elements, where the meaning is in the core of the song regardless of the details of instrumentation, effects and temp. They will add those as appropriate for the artist.If you want producers to hear it or to remember to call you to see if you have a song for a project they are working on, supply a very basic vocal and melody, maybe only piano or acoustic guitar accompaniment. It will have a much better chance of making it into the artists project.
    Don't add percussion parts that are not playable because you might like them but it will sound awkward to an audience. If you are not a horn player, resist the notion to program in horn parts in your project because it is almost always awkward sounding to others. Get a horn player to program the sequence, just as getting a drummer to program the beatbox. It makes a difference in how the part is perceived. Resist the overly common practice of layering mania. If the concept is not clear to the listener with a modest layering, it is not going to be more clear when buried under 200 tracks of percussion. Don't laugh, that is not an unusual number. A friend was producing a reggae/punk band for Sony and I dropped by his home studio to see how it was going because it was several weeks late in delivery to the label. He was obsessing over a sound that when soloed was a little strange but nothing to worry about in its isolated playback He built up a few dozen slight variations on it, soloing each in sequence. I did not care at all since I did not listen to music with one track soloed to tell how it worked in the song. But apparently this percussion section had delayed him for almost a week. I asked him to just play the whole mix, he did, but only the percussion group and it was so complex and layered that no one would have been able to detect the part with a microscope. Just this percussion part was 197 layered tracks....for a punk band! In the old days he would have been able to tell instantly how any element fit or contributed to the overall song but now with such detail to focus on, he was obsessed with some of those details that would only be heard in his imagination and have less than zero impact on the communicative ability of the song. I have seem many home projects by amateurs with 500 tracks. If there was a meaning on concept somewhere in that pile of tracks, only the writer will ever know it while an audience will not.
    Slow record sales have many contributing causes but the root is poor song writing. It has also killed the follow-on market of covers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    "Real musicians" might lay down tracks, but look at it this way:

    DaVinci painted the Mona Lisa. I bet he could also paint his garage. That isn't the same as a garage painter trying to come up with the Mona Lisa. Sure it is a lot or work to put together a drum track. Just that drum track will never pause and say "Hey, what if right her we did this...?"
    Two things.
    First, thanks Enzo for calling my attention to my unintentional slight. As I do consider someone who uses "tools" (as opposed to instruments) as musicians as you definitely create music! So apologies to those who read this in the future. But again, no slight was intended. Poor choice of terminology on my part, and my communication issues rearing their ugly head again.

    Second, I can definitely understand the value of additional input for reflective or alternate perspective. Point 1 above highlights that nicely. *chuckles* Your message played with talent, finesse, and grace Enzo. Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    On the other hand, I stepped into a bar one evening, and a couple friends of mine happened to be playing on stage. They were a two piece with a drum machine. I bought three drinks and had them delivered to the band.
    ROFL. That's just awesome on so many levels.

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post


    On the other hand, I stepped into a bar one evening, and a couple friends of mine happened to be playing on stage. They were a two piece with a drum machine. I bought three drinks and had them delivered to the band.
    Everyone knows the drum machine can't drink, he's driving....

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    Two images come to mind...
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    Ok Stan, I have a bit better understanding I believe of what you meant. TY again for the followup!

    So, what I'm getting from it at this point, is that you're geared more towards the lyrics first, then everything else can fall in place as need be/warranted. If that's a fair assessment, then I'm guessing that would be as a result of more traditional (perhaps even almost classical style) formal music training.

    And it'd be a safe bet as to why then, that would be the large part of why I'd be "out of my element" to some degree, and wasn't "getting it" in others.

    I had formal training in violin from like 6-8, then through early teens trombone...then tri's/quads/xylophone/trap set. But when I made the switch to guitar as a young teen, and my penchant for rock in particular...it just seemed counter-intuitive or even almost wrong. I had a self-imposed restriction of "This music is meant to be felt, not calculated" because it evoked that in me. Which is what most structured (read as: classical) compositions at that level/age in life felt like. Calculated. Being able to read music/play someone else's under those constraints just felt bland. It was often entertaining and to many degrees enjoyable, just not fulfilling.

    Rock was fulfilling. I learned to play guitar by ear, and simply turning on the radio, and learning to play along. And having the previous background no doubt helped. But with a critical ear...and many repetitions of listening, and then practice, I had to have it note for note perfect or I wasn't satisfied. And as I began nailing a song down, the *feeling* of exhilaration during execution was just automatic and was (I believe) imparted by hitting the notes exactly as the artist did. And that equated to almost a "literal translation" of emotions if you will. During execution, I'd get the distinct impression of what I perceived the artist had to be feeling while playing that. That process was revealing, as well as inspirational.

    I know I didn't technically replicate them in (m)any cases (exact position/finger structure), but sonically was enough for me. And by not having that pre-disposed set of "you do it this way, you can't do that..." I actually ended up coming up with unique ways of creating a structure/sound/style that is without a doubt my own. Both to my benefit, and detriment alike.

    I know that I could be light years ahead of where I am, in playing, had I found a teacher that could "make things clear to me". But given who I am and how I process things, that was evidently a tall order. But I've always thought "outside the box" in most, if not all things, compared to the majority, and that will always be an ongoing and daily adaptation. However, I've long since accepted that's just who I am. Rather than fight it as I did in the early years, I've learned to try and work around/with it.

    So that's why feeling to me is so much more important than a being a technical player. Though I without a doubt have MUCH respect for the dedication that technical players have. As I've spent time on that route as well and know what it entails.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think music shouldn't be formulaic as a whole. I do agree that there are definitely techniques/formulas that can be very productive and positive, but I consider those as tools. Not requirements. Formulaic strikes me as a pre-defined requirement. And that just rubs me the wrong way. But I acknowledge and agree with the notion that there are/should be basic fundamentals that are simply "indisputable", and should always be a part. Just like a an octave will always be 12 half steps away. I take that as a given though. *shrugs*

    Ironically, the primary thing that drew me into electronics 35+ years ago, was that there was a concrete set of fundamental rules. But I'm almost the polar opposite with regard to guitar and making music. Go figure. lol

    Anyways, not sure that I intended to get into all of this, but, I fully appreciate being surrounded by other intelligent folks that challenge me to take another look, open my eyes to something I'd missed, or even re-assess as need be. This place is phenomenal in that regard.

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    Member Emeritus Forever Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Lots of replies here to what appears to be a spam post from a new member (I have to give it points for posting it in the appropriate forum.)

    Steve A.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Spam by itself failed miserably
    People here either didn´t care about his "music" ot plain despised it
    The rest of the thread is the creation of a bunch of fine and well informed people
    MEF at its best

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Spam by itself failed miserably
    People here either didn´t care about his "music" ot plain despised it
    The rest of the thread is the creation of a bunch of fine and well informed people
    MEF at its best
    In the same way a song might start as a rhythm, melody, lyrics, indigestion, or the need for one more to fill the album, these threads can start from a sincere question or observation or a bot.

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    Don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    Funny how a thread about EDM DJ "perfomances" ended up talking about song writing!
    And Stan, because I agree with you about song writing is the exact reason I reject the whole EDM thing, I find it a little ironic that you defended that type of music earlier in the thread.

    Edit: upon re-reading your earlier post Stan, I see you were referring more to the actual live event, and not to the music itself.

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-one View Post
    Edit: upon re-reading your earlier post Stan, I see you were referring more to the actual live event, and not to the music itself.
    I could not imagine torture in hell worse than listening to recorded electronica on a stereo at home but would the first in line for an event like this thread started out referring to. Live dance events are fun and exciting and the music fits but it is as much performance art by 30,000 people as music. No problem, I would go to Hardwell's events if they were closer.
    In the late 60s we called the mass human performance art "be-ins" and involved music often as the catalyst for the real event that was spontaneous and unpredictable. It is a way of connecting with others through a common cultural experience. The only difference is the music is louder and the girls a lot hotter now.

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    Senior Member km6xz's Avatar
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    If you were able to pick up guitar by ear, you have more ear smarts than me but please do not confuse frameworks as calculated. They can be but not by skilled practitioners of the art of painting aural images in stranger's minds. The whole idea of using a common cultural derived framework such as 12 note scales is the have a common vocabulary with the audience so they can perceive what the composer/artist is trying to convey. Technical skill is usually required to most skillfully transcend the constraints of operating an instrument. I like jazz and for no small part, the creative output that breaks the rules, because the player has so mastered the technical part of playing that whole new terms in the musical vocabulary are available. All the greats innovators in classical or jazz were first tremendously skilled in the instruments themselves. Listen to Charlie Parker and what he does that could not be attempted by someone who had just ordinary high level of skill. Just take the Bebop masters, they did not just go out in left field, they extended the technical range of music theory and knew the theory and as well as anyone. The image of heroin nodding jazz players misses the point that almost all were extremely intelligent and learned about the art and science of music. Rock is much more formulaic than jazz or classical, and much easier to gain competency enough to communicate with an audience.
    Some types of frameworks are by intention very limiting. Say, Bluegrass. It has a very small body of compositions but it is not about compsition or originality, it is about technical skill in playing the small set of standards. Go to a Blue Grass festival and hear the same songs over and over and no one minding the lack of variety. The audience and players are there to share slight variations on a theme of playing style and skill and having a standard set of material makes comparing meaning more. Being a champion fiddler means you beat the best with an even playing field, the same songs and so the little things you can do as a player to separate you from the others are noticed and admired.
    To the non-fan, metal rock bands seem identical yet the glory goes to those who, just like in Blue Grass, can operate in a tightly constrained playing field and still stand out. That is the idea behind NASCAR with a fraction of a percent difference between any of the top cars as opposed to open sports class racing where very different cars designs share the track. The best driver is the one who wins more under the same conditions with cars that vary so little in NASCAR.
    In narrow genre music, the same sort of common theme is not a formula as much as each playing field where the audience notices the nuances that a casual observer might never catch. Rock has gotten into a boring stage however and little has developed that is new and innovative like in the early periods. I love rock but even new groups seem more nostalgia bands than artists creating something new and exciting. Other than classical it is about the oldest popular framework for music without change. Rap is getting there and feels long in the tooth also. There are interesting things going on in dance music, bringing the thread full circle but it is a niche that has not the wide popularity compared to larger movements like rock.

    It is about 10pm so time for me to get dressed and head out to the clubs....I got home at 5:30 this morning. That fact that dance keeps people in clubs longer than a live act is why DJs have solid income potential. 3 45minute sets of a rock act means the club never gets the income that a 6-7 hour audience of a DJ retains.

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    Member Emeritus Forever Steve A.'s Avatar
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    The spammer certainly picked the wrong forum for his spam. (I did not click on the link because I never click on links from new members with a single post.)

    Here is a link to a great site for creating and listening to jams:

    http://www.wikiloops.com


    Here is a track with my friend Felix playing some great guitar:

    wikiloops.com | "Short And Sassy" | free Funk backing track No.4996

    By clicking on the "Remixes" tab you can see the original drum track and all of the remixes created from it. For any remix you can remove the last instrument or the last two instruments and add your own.

    One disadvantage with the site... with it called wikiLOOPS it is unfortunate that the MP3 format was used since a two-second gap is automatically added to MP3 tracks so you can't create a real loop track. (Bandwidth was a lot more expensive back when this site was created- in today's world FLAC or WAV tracks could be used without breaking the banks.)

    Steve A.

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    Last edited by Steve A.; 08-04-2014 at 09:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    The spammer certainly picked the wrong forum for his spam. (I did not click on the link because I never click on links from new members with a single post.)
    Looks like quite the happy 'accident' then!! Look at everything it's generated.

    And like you noted earlier.. at least it was in the right area, that kinda cinched it wasn't a bot. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Here is a link to a great site for creating and listening to jams:

    http://www.wikiloops.com
    oooooooooooooh! New toy!! Ty for sharing, as I've not heard of this 'til now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Here is a track with my friend Felix playing some great guitar:

    wikiloops.com | "Short And Sassy" | free Funk backing track No.4996
    Felix is good! But the combo that they all came up with...wow. Nice laid back jam!

    Safe bet I'll be spending more time on that site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    By clicking on the "Remixes" tab you can see the original drum track and all of the remixes created from it. For any remix you can remove the last instrument or the last two instruments and add your own.
    It's awesome to see all the different takes, and directions. This is a site that *should* really evolve into something HUGE. I hope it does! Hrmm..though it definitely raises A LOT of concerns about who owns what.

    Do you know offhand if the participating musicians 'waive' rights upon publishing/participating there? I could easily see 'bands' being forged from working together there, and then have to fight with the site op wanting to 'own/market anything/everything' from a group that formed there as a result.
    It'd be a shame to gain notoriety from something there, and then not be able to play it/sell it down the road.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    One disadvantage with the site... with it called wikiLOOPS it is unfortunate that the MP3 format was used since a two-second gap is automatically added to MP3 tracks so you can't create a real loop track. (Bandwidth was a lot more expensive back when this site was created- in today's world FLAC or WAV tracks could be used without breaking the banks.)

    Steve A.
    Thanks for sharing Steve

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    Hey thanks for sharing a good materiel.is there any other portal like you can share with us.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Hey!!! Jhonlee is back !!!!!



    I was getting somewhat worried about you , maybe your nuclear batteries were not available any more or something similar but see you were retrofitted and updated.

    Now about what you are pushing today, I admit many of us are Rockers and we even have a few old Hippies, but seriously you think we need:
    Studies endorse that Ibogaine has considerable potential in the treatment of hard drug addiction for example heroin, methadone, cocaine, crack and alcohol. There are also indications that it is useful in the treatment of tobacco addiction.

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