Unplugged solid body: loud and resonant or tinny and thin?

[Silvertone Jockey]

At the risk of starting a heated debate I was wondering what the consensus is on an unplugged electric solid body guitar. I have recently seen this debate on youtube and I immediately took to the position based upon my personal experience that an instrument that is loud and resonant generally sounds better when it's plugged in too, than one that sounds tinny when you play it unplugged. I have seen some posts on this topic reading back through the threads here, and I thought it would make for an informative thread on it's own. My best sounding guitar is also the loudest when played acoustically as well. So what do you prefer?

[Paleo Pete]

I never even plug in a guitar that doesn't sound good unplugged. When I go around looking, unplugged has to sound good. Most guitar players I've talked to agree. I pay more attention to sustain and a nice overall sound, you're not going to get much of a "full" sound from an unplugged electric, but when you listen to as many as I have in 50 years of playing you can immediately tell a difference between two unplugged solid bodies. So a good sound unplugged is a requirement for me. If I don't hear a nice solid sound with good sustain, even with dead strings, I never even plug it in. Yes, with dead strings you can tell, but it's not as obvious.

[Mark Hammer]

While there is no guarantee that a solid body which is nonresonant and tinny-sounding unplugged will sound simply awful once plugged in, the odds are greater that a more lively resonant solid body will sound pleasing when plugged in. Ad at least part of that is because of the opportunities it provides for the player to work those resonances. In the same way that overdrives produce a more sustained harmonically rich signal that the player can elect to "carve away", using their picking style or butt of their picking hand, the livelier resonant instrument offers the player something they can elect to truncate, via their playing style.

It's a bit like the difference between additive and subtractive synthesis. In the latter, the musician starts out with something harmonically rich and sustaining, and selectively removes aspects of the signal to achieve the sound they want. A resonant guitar gives you more to take away.

Plus, you feel it against your body, and the tactile feedback helps shape phrasing. I always find I play more soulfully on a mahogany neck than a maple one, simply because I feel the resonance in my fret hand, which shapes my finger vibrato.

[frus]

I've heard "theories" that if your guitar body/neck resonates less, it means that less energy of strings vibrating is "wasted" to vibrate the wood, hence more sustain

[bbsailor]

A vibrating string will loose energy by:
1. Friction between the string area and the air.
2. The heat generated and stiffness within the moving string metal located at the two support points: nut and bridge.
3. Transfered energy to any vibrating parts of the guitar which can only come from the energy stored within the motion of the plucked string.

Solid body guitars suck less energy from strings than acoustic or even big body electric jazz type guitars.

The vibrating string energy that the pickup senses is that which is left after the initial string pluck or string attack. Depending on the body type and material, neck type and material, neck to body joint, string supports (nut and bridge), loose vibrating parts, and magnetic pickup damping, each individual guitar will have a different acoustic feel that is ultimately amplified by the pickup.

I have a Shecter Research S1-Elite with a well set neck in the body, slightly fatter neck, and string-through-body behind the bridge design that has the best sustain of any other guitar that I own. I picked up this guitar off the used guitar rack at the Guitar Center. Even though it had some cosmetic flaws and a hacked pickup replacement, the minute I played it, I said to myself: "this guitar has potential".

Therefore, yes the acoustic feel of an electric guitar is very important to making your selection. When buying a new in-the-box guitar, open it in the store, play it and compare it to other similar designs before you walk out the door.

Joseph Rogowski

[eschertron]

I've heard "theories" that if your guitar body/neck resonates less, it means that less energy of strings vibrating is "wasted" to vibrate the wood, hence more sustain

I had an electric bass (keyword: 'had') that would resonate so much on an 'A' note (D string, 7th fret primarily, but also noticeable on the A string, 12th fret, et al) that all the vibrating energy would be sucked out of the string and the note died rapidly. I could feel the neck vibrate sympathetically with this note much more than with any other notes played. Talk about a sour note!

On the other hand my latest acquisition, an LP-style guitar, has the kind of resonance (body resonance instead of neck?) that gives it a mellow-almost-semi-hollow sound when played unplugged. The feel and the sound of it unplugged really were what sold me on that guitar. And I'm sure the body resonance contributes to the overall sound, amplified, as well.

So to throw another log on the fire, what effect does fixed- versus floating- bridge have on the sound? I have a friend who swears that the springs in his strat-style guitar give a "spring reverb like" vibe to his playing when he practices unplugged. Says they make the sound louder.

[Mark Hammer]

That was kind of the theory behind the old Dan Armstrong Lucite guitars. But it turned out not to be all that true. Not that the Lucite body didn't improve sustain above and beyond 3rd-rate wood bodies, but rather it didn't seem to improve anything beyond what a properly selected, and balanced, wooden neck and body would achieve.

Fundamentally, the neck and body have to work together, rather than against each other. Better and worse choices and mismatches can be made, regardless of material. I don't know that acoustically resonant guitars are necessarily better-matched, in that respect, but it often feels like it.

Is weight commensurate with resonance or sustain? I don't know. I suspect a poorly-chosen bridge assembly can undermine the sustain/resonance potential of what feels like a light, and otherwise resonant, instrument. Indeed, many jazz boxes, despite being rather resonant, acoustically, have bridges that deliberately create fast decay, and a more percussive sound where the pick attack is brief, after which the string gets very mellow very quickly.

[rjb]

I had an electric bass (keyword: 'had') that would resonate so much on an 'A' note (D string, 7th fret primarily, but also noticeable on the A string, 12th fret, et al) that all the vibrating energy would be sucked out of the string and the note died rapidly. I could feel the neck vibrate sympathetically with this note much more than with any other notes played. Talk about a sour note!

Maybe getting off-topic here, but that dead note may have been caused by a rattling truss rod.
You can fix it by pouring glue down the truss rod channel.
FRETS.COM

[Silvertone Jockey]

So to throw another log on the fire, what effect does fixed- versus floating- bridge have on the sound? I have a friend who swears that the springs in his strat-style guitar give a "spring reverb like" vibe to his playing when he practices unplugged. Says they make the sound louder.

I also have discovered this. I run all 5 springs in my strat. I have found I can tweak the reverb sound by angling the claw and adjusting the spring tension. I don't use the bar so the bridge sits on the body. You can hear this effect plugged in as well. It's touchy though, the wrong setting will cause the guitar to resonate some notes a long time almost like feedback

[Steve A.]

So to throw another log on the fire, what effect does fixed- versus floating- bridge have on the sound? I have a friend who swears that the springs in his strat-style guitar give a "spring reverb like" vibe to his playing when he practices unplugged. Says they make the sound louder.

I can definitely hear the springs from a vintage style trem bridge- IMO it adds an unnatural sustain the guitar. Kinda like the things that rattle on a snare drum...

I love resting an unamplified Les Paul against a sheetrock wall. If there are no walls around I'll tug on the guitar strap against the back of my neck to get a bone tone.

There are too many theories on what sucks sound on a guitar- the more scientific it sounds the more likely it is bullshit. In the 80's having a heavy brass bridge on your LP gave it more sustain, so they said and I agreed with them. Now heavy brass bridges are out because they allegedly suck tone. But I think it depends on the guitar.

Trying to optimize sustain on an unampified electric guitar is kinda stupid because once you plug it in the sound from the speakers can sustain the note almost indefinitely (like Santana's 45 second note on some live versions of "Europa".) I like a guitar that has a singing tone unamplified.

I think that the interaction between the neck and the body is the most important factor in getting a good unamplified sound (can we call call it the "natural" sound of an electric guitar?)

Steve A.

P.S. If the guitar has super low action for shredders it may not sound very good at all unamplified.

[Silvertone Jockey]

Trying to optimize sustain on an unampified electric guitar is kinda stupid because once you plug it in the sound from the speakers can sustain the note almost indefinitely (like Santana's 45 second note on some live versions of "Europa".) I like a guitar that has a singing tone unamplified.

I think that the interaction between the neck and the body is the most important factor in getting a good unamplified sound (can we call call it the "natural" sound of an electric guitar?)

Steve A.

P.S. If the guitar has super low action for shredders it may not sound very good at all unamplified.

I agree with you Steve. Great sounding guitars are pretty much just accidents among their mass produced brethren. I have been down the road where I attributed the sound of a guitar to this or that component, only to find out after swapping parts all around that it's the combination of the right parts as a cohesive whole that determines the outcome, with the neck being foremost the greatest factor.

Oh and I play 11's with high action, can't stand AX's that have fret buzz, but others disagree and shred more than me, so to each his own, there is no right or wrong with these things

[Silvertone Jockey]

This is the video that got me started on this, from Scott Grove. Some opinions from the Luthiers here about Scott's theories would be cool, slam dunk or total bunk?

)

[Paleo Pete]

Any guitar held against a wall should produce at least some tone through the wall, my semi hollow body telecaster copy does, and my Squier strat.

I often put my ear against the upper horn of a guitar and listen to it. Even acoustics. You can hear every little thing.

What affect does a floating bridge have? I'm not sure really. In some cases I think I can hear a little of the springs in back, and unplugged I hear little difference. With my hollow body Cort CL1500 I can hear some of the hardware and wires bumping around, my Peavey Patriot (floating bridge) does have a bit of noise from the springs, but I'm not sure if it has much affect on the plugged in sound. The main thing I've noticed is with some guitars I seem to be able to hear pickup noise a lot more when I play due to my hand hitting it and jarring things around. But that's my heavy handed playing style. I vary from a very light picking style and finger picking to just plain beating the crap out of the guitar at times. When I get heavy handed I can get noises I can only describe as hardware banging around from abuse...in that case, yeah I'm sure the springs are screaming...but the hollow body fixed bridge (Les Paul style but wrap around bridge) gets noisy too. Unplugged I can hear the Cort's pickups rattle, and if anything is loose on any guitar I can hear it, especially if I put my ear against the guitar.

[Steve A.]

Oh and I play 11's with high action, can't stand AX's that have fret buzz, but others disagree and shred more than me, so to each his own, there is no right or wrong with these things

Just wondering if there are guitarist who LIKE fret buzz... I guess we need to start a poll on that.
Like you I used to keep the action on all of my guitars high enough to avoid fret buzz as well as choking when you bend the strings on the upper frets. Until I learned about fret leveling. With a $40 kit from Amazon you can check for high frets with a "fret rocker", lower them with a 2" x 6" diamond grit sanding board and recrown them with a diamond grit recrown tool.

Amazon.com: Pro Guitar Fret Leveling /Diamond Crowning 3 piece Kit: Musical Instruments




The following fret dressing tool is very handy for sanding down the high spots and restoring the round crown shape. (The tool in the kit listed above pretty much offers just one basic crown profile- great if you leveling the full fretboard.)

STEWMAC.COM - Fret Dressing Stick

Any guitar held against a wall should produce at least some tone through the wall, my semi hollow body telecaster copy does, and my Squier strat.

My point was just that it can be hard to hear the acoustic sound of a heavy LP but resting it against a sheetrock wall will amplify the sound.

[Paleo Pete]

Sorry Steve, guess I misunderstood you. I usually do what I said above, press my ear against the upper horn, just above the pickup switch on a Les Paul, and that's actually my favorite guitar sound. Never have been able to find an amp or setting that duplicates it though...