Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jason's "heavy metal" neo blades: Where to go from here?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Jason's "heavy metal" neo blades: Where to go from here?

    Hi, folks. I'm new on this forum, but I'm pretty active on the MIMF. I met David King there, and have received a lot of help and guidance from him (virtually, and in person, here in the Portland, OR area) over the past decade or so. I've even bumped into David Schwab over there in the past. I'm a hobby builder of various guitars, finishing my first this July.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Stringing up.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	98.6 KB
ID:	868853
    This past spring, I also decided that I wanted to build my own pickups, so I jumped in with both feet, bought Lollar's book, and built a winder.
    Click image for larger version

Name:	winder complete.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	1.76 MB
ID:	868852
    Of course, I can't do anything simply or by the books, so I did a little reading, and then made the pickups the way I thought they should look for this project, largely flying by the seat of my pants. My first pickups are rail/blade humbuckers. The flatwork is laminated countertop laminate offcuts, and the core is Home Depot 3/16"x3/4" soft steel bar. David King saw me post some in-progress pics elsewhere and suggested lightening the load on those steel cores, so I drilled em out (they kinda look like brass knuckles, eh?).
    Click image for larger version

Name:	X Rail humbuckers.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	78.3 KB
ID:	868854
    The neck pickup is wound to 9.6k total, and the bridge to 13.6k, both with 42awg wire (from Elektrisola). Under the hood are six 1/8"x1/8"x1/2" neos on each core.

    Controls are a standard Carvin arrangement: 3-way toggle for bridge, both, and neck; plus 2 mini switches for coil tap neck north and bridge south. I like the tonal options this gives. 500k audio taper Bourns on volume and tone, with a .022uf cap.

    The good news is, they work, and they don't sound bad! Well, not NOT bad, and that's why I'm posting here. David King warned me that there would likely be a lot of high frequency loss due to eddy currents in the excessive soft steel of the cores. I attended the GAL conference in Tacoma this summer, where I met Veronica Merryfield, and she checked them out and concluded that their resonant peak is a bit lower than would be expected/desired. So yes, they do sound a bit muddy: not much sparkle, and not much string separation.

    I'm playing around with pickup height, and dropping them down has balanced things a little. I will be pulling the whole guitar apart to do some neck and bridge adjustments/modifications soon, so my next idea is to pull one or two of those little neos off each core and see what that does. I'll also be sticking a .001uf cap for treble bleed on the volume pot.

    But I thought I'd also throw this out to the knowledgeable folks here: these pickups are what they are, but are there any little tricks that I might try to brighten them up a bit? Many thanks in advance!

  • #2
    Welcome!
    Lots of neat looking stuff.
    You did jump in with both feet.
    I would have recommended easing in to winding, using some kits, and established designs that are known to work.
    Then work on the new design.
    One question I have is what effect does those big holes have on the magnetic properties of the blades.
    Probably none, but the flux does have to travel around all of it.
    When we talk about winding we want to know the DCR ohms value, but the main thing is turns count.
    Example 5000 turns may have a similar sound on a short or long bobbin, but the DCR will vary greatly.
    most neck humbuckers with 42AWG wire is kept under 5000 turns per bobbin.
    So I suspect 9k + is way over 5000 turns per bobbin, which would account for the muddy neck pickup.
    Usually you can get by with a lot more turns on the bridge pickup.
    If you have turns count info, please list that here.
    Also, if you will give the dimensions of the blades inside the bobbins, we can calculate turns, & DCR using the Salvarsan Coil estimator.
    Need Dimensions for, inside bobbin Height (between the flats), blade thickness, and blade length.
    GL,
    Terry
    Last edited by big_teee; 09-06-2014, 07:05 PM.
    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
    Terry

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh, right! Here are the other details...

      Bobbin cores are 3/16" thick and 3" long. 1/2" between flats. 5000 turns on each neck coil (4.8k each) and 7000 (6.8k) on the bridge coils. Potted in paraffin with a bit of beeswax thrown in for good mojo.

      The holes drilled in the cores were simply a way to remove material when David mentioned that the amount of steel used seemed a bit excessive. I didn't know what I was doing, and still don't, but it sure has been fun!

      Comment


      • #4
        I just did a sidewinder bass pickup with blades.
        You're going through the same issues I had.
        Your blades need to be thin, as short as possible, and no deeper than necessary.
        If you want the blade thicker, then it needs to be laminated.
        3 inch bobbin blades seems excessively long for a 6 string.
        You could do a brighter similar pickup with the EMG soapbar type pickup.
        Cheap and easy to make, no Eddy currents to make the pickup sound dark.
        Ceramic Magnets go in the bobbins. should be great for metal music.
        4 String Bass Blade Pickup Bobbin
        2-Hole Mount Soapbar Bass Neck Pickup Cover Black (4 String)
        Ceramic 8 Bar Magnet 2.60" Long
        T
        ** If you want the pickups longer, use the 5 string bass parts instead of the 4 string parts.
        "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
        Terry

        Comment


        • #5
          This is a 7-string guitar, and with the multiscale I wanted to angle the pickups to follow the frets, so that's why these are a bit wide. In addition, I was using some generalizations about pickup design and built them tall to improve chances of enhanced highs, considering I planned to wind them hot, which would favor lows. That might all just be a bunch of bull$#!+, though!

          Yes, I'm reading and learning now about laminated cores, and even woke up a discussion to ask a question about grounding the laminates. I've been reading up on blades, in general, particularly the discussions on metal type and their effect on the end tonality product. Learning more about sidewinders and stacked pickups, I'm finding that there are a lot of ways to go about "picking up" string vibration: none are necessarily right or wrong, just different, and just like songs, every one is probably somebody's favorite.

          So, in the EMGs, what looks like blades as wide as mine are actually ceramic bars? I was going to get around to finding out more about that. Noted.

          Anything I can do with these guys now to tip the performance a little more toward the treble? Or do I just learn from what I've done and wind on?

          Thanks!

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh, 7 string, I only counted 6 tuners, but one is off the grid, I guess.
            Maybe take a little wire off the neck pickup and see how that sounds.
            Sounds like your zeroing in on it.
            Does the bridge sound ok, or is it dark also?
            If you can use plastic bobbins, you can try different blades and magnets inside of them.
            Maybe someone else has some ideas.
            BTW, Your work looks great!
            T
            Last edited by big_teee; 09-11-2014, 08:35 PM.
            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
            Terry

            Comment


            • #7
              Ha-ha! Thanks! I didn't notice that one tuner was perfectly out of that picture! They're a Hipshot 4x3 set.

              Yes, both coils have the same sort of "crowded" sound. I might be able to post a clip, if folks could coach me on the "standard" setup used around here for listening to pickups.

              Pulling wire from coils, while an effective strategy for modifying pickups, is not a step I'm willing to take. If that's the only measure that would guaranty a change, then I may just have to leave them be and swap them out in the future if I find myself really frustrated with the sound. I'm ok with boxing them, or saving them for a project that might be more fitting of their sound. For example, I've promised an old friend a bass guitar some day.

              That's some real clean work on that bass bucker, Terry. I need to learn more about magnets, in general, and proven designs, in particular. But I think there's something wrong with your picture upload... that guitar is backwards!

              Comment


              • #8
                Yep, the bass is a SR300L.
                L is for South Paw!
                Those pickups don't even exist anymore.
                I've since Stripped them, and made Sidewinders out of them.
                If you do much winding, get good at the Exacto Knife Technique.
                I have wound many pickups to strip them and start over.
                It goes with the territory.
                Especially if you are making new pickup designs, without any Data to start with.
                Lots of trial and error, but the Destination is usually worth the Journey!
                GL,
                T
                "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                Terry

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have four coils but I wound five. The first attempt went awry, and I had to unwind quite a bit into a bird's nest at my feet; it all went back on seemingly ok, but there must have been a kink or a scuff in the insulation that caused a short. Heck, I didn't even know enough about testing pickups to find it before wiring it into the guitar, then........ nothing. Slicing through that coil is a pretty sickening feeling, but then it was off and I was cleaning and preping the bobbin for a rewind and it went beautifully. An hour later it was ready to go back in the Crock-Potter and I was back in business.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you are winding right on top of the blade?
                    Are you Taping the blade first?
                    Several ways to do it.
                    Kapton tape, paper tape, scotch tape, waxed floral tape.
                    We tape to keep the blade from shorting to the wire.
                    T
                    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yep, David King suggested the Kapton tape. Good stuff.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Another alternative is the Humbucking Sidewinder!
                        I haven't tried it for guitar application but might be ok for a 7 string guitar.
                        Made similiar to the soapbar bass humbucker, but coils get turned sidewise and a thin steel blade stuck between them.
                        You may want to try this design.
                        Using plastic covers, with plastic bobbins, gives a lot of flexibility to change and try different designs.
                        Last edited by big_teee; 09-16-2014, 12:48 AM.
                        "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                        Terry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really like the idea of blades/rails, in general, for their ability to have complete string coverage. If I ever decide to attempt a copy of an existing pickup (and that's not very likely, as I sort of have an aversion to copying), I might try slug or screw poles, but I think I'll play with variations on the blade theme.

                          So, that was a triple blade sidewinder? The center blade getting fed the norths and outside blades going south? But it was still too much metal? What about very thin strips? What about different types of metal?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bass pickups IMO need to be bright by nature.
                            It might work fine for guitar.
                            Another thing to consider is to wind directly around the ceramic bass magnets.
                            Only thing they are 1/2 inch wide, so the pickups would be shroter.
                            They come in a variety of lengths.
                            They would be brighter than the steel blades.
                            Ceramic Bar Magnets
                            You would need to wind some up and try them.
                            Last edited by big_teee; 09-11-2014, 08:36 PM.
                            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                            Terry

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In a sidewinder, the blade or screws on the keeper creates the aperture for string sensing, right? So a triple blade pickup would sense the string at three locations, with a resulting broader harmonic content? That right there could be the reason for the lack of brightness you observed, yes?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X