Still no break-up. 2x 5F1's.

[Sea Chief]

nuts

[guitician]

What's with the slideshow? You should just link the image to the post.

[eschertron]

Amp1 is simply a 5F1 with a tone control (and a MV- which, of course does fk-all!). Also it has a ss rectifier. This makes a slightly bassy but balanced sound into the 112, the tone knob a great help tbh, it was a dark amp before.

Thanks Sea Chief.

Have you posted a schematic of the Amp1? What exactly kind of tone control do you have in it? A stock 5F1 has nothing but a volume control between stages 1 and 2, turning that up to "12" provides the user with a signal that has no attenuation at all. I added a 'tone stack lift' to a Champion 600 to get the grind I wanted. If there's a BF style network added to your Amp1, then that would account for a lot of signal loss. Might explain that amp, anyway.

[guitician]

Is this the amp?

[Sea Chief]

What's with the slideshow? You should just link the image to the post.

Sheesh- I thought I deleted that. Ok cant do photos: tried everything even resorting to a direct photobucket link, but seem to be the whole shebang so nuts to that. I think its my old XP 'puter as the image-link thing freezes me up and I have to shut all pages.

Yes the amp1 is the pic ^ (albeit that looks like the chinese weber PT which I changed for a 254-0-254v Vyse PT (UK made & far better quality) which is in there now, but yes essentially that is amp1. Now, ain't she gorgeous?

Thanks SC.

[Sea Chief]

Hi g-one.

Can ya'll check me on this, an SG is only 1/3 louder than a strat?

Edit: And Chief, I don't know about you, but for me it's always the one thing I refuse to check and am 110% sure about that turns around and bites me in the hind-quarters. Murphy's law and all... .
Like the man always says, "never think up reasons not to check something".

Hi g-one,

There's nothing to check- gtrs are fine.

Ok at last success: I will post an inside shot tmrw, but here is amp2 I hope shows Im not quite the chimp Im being portrayed as.. I built the cabinet.

[Sea Chief]

Thanks, Sea Chief.

[Jazz P Bass]

Uhmm.
Ahah.
Thanks for the pics.
So it is a Fender Champion 600 Reissue.

[eschertron]

Uhmm.
Ahah.
Thanks for the pics.
So it is a Fender Champion 600 Reissue.

Right. So the C600 is more like a blackface champ than a 5F1. The tone stack (even if there are no knobs for it on the front panel) is sucking 90% of the amplitude out of the signal. So even on 10 (or 12) the amp sounds like the volume is on 5 or 6. If you want the Champ to sound like a 5F1, you'll need to 'lift' or otherwise bypass the tone stack. And as I mentioned in my post #33 above, that quick mod will make a snarling beast out the amp.

[Enzo]

OK, I just read through these pages.

Sea Chief, tell me if i am wrong. Through this thread, various people have suggested "it might be this" or "it might be that". What I think I see in response is you telling them, "Oh it can't be that because... and it can;t be the other because... and I know it isn't the guitar because..." so does that mean you have not done those various simple tests, because you "don;'t need to"?

As someone quoted above, my mantra is "never think up reasons not to check something". it is amazing how many times a simple check of "never in a million years..." makes one discover a problem.

people have sent me kits they have built, and spent hours going over, and I find one resistor and one cap swapped places. and how many times has a 470 ohm resistor been installed where a 470k resistor belongs? I found a kit one someone had built, and the tube socket was very neatly wired, ;looked great, until we noticed all the wires are off by one pin. Guy had miscounted the tube socket pins.

In a small simple amp like this, we can verify the value of every part in it in a few minutes. And the result, even if it finds no problem is far more useful "Oh it COULDN'T be a wrong value because two different people in two different countries built them." Sad fact is ther are people who have won the lotto more than once. And I mean the top prize, not s $500 shot. "What are the odds" doesn;t apply then.

My point is, the problem SEEMS like it ought not exist, but yet it does anyway. SO clearly we are missing something, overlooking some detail, whatever. SO no matter how stupid, why not take a couple minutes and test all the stuff? And even if none of that pays off itself, it MIGHT cause you to notice something else as you pass by.

[Sea Chief]

Uhmm.
Ahah.
Thanks for the pics.
So it is a Fender Champion 600 Reissue.

**Nope- it is NOT a 600 reissue**.

This is amp2. It is a plain jane Champ 5F1 in a 600 chassis (the PT I am quizzing now it might be the reissue 600 PT with added rectifier wires: you see I was told simply its "a fender PT rewound to Champ spec" I was led to believe it was NOT the 600 PT this is why I bought it IE to pillage the PT into Amp1/ have a few spare tubes/ few spare bits).

It so happened the chassis looked nice, better than expected and better than amp1! (its not a chinese job, its a thick alu pro made 600 copy it seems) so I quickly knocked up a cab for it before I thought of what to swap A into B amp (or vice versa now chassis 2 looks so good). As its as clean as Amp1 (i wasnt expecting) the PT pillaging now has no point, until I can establish why no growl. So Im left with 2 amps. [And a big Q about amp2's PT for a Champ 5F1, if indeed it is still basically a 600].

**It is NOT a "600" reissue amp. It is a simple 5F1 p-to-p circuit housed in a "600" reissue chassis.**



Thanks, Sea Chief.

[Sea Chief]

Enzo hi- your input always appreciated (as is JazzP, g-one and all on this).

Im going to gloss over the gtr suggestion. I'll say it till Im blue in the face: Im not saying it anymore: the gtrs are fine.

Your suggestion that it might be a resistor wrongly placed, or wires wrongly placed is of course reasonable. But one thing tells me not: if this was so, I would tell from the sound at 3-5 say if there was something amiss. If a wire was wrong as your pals, the amp either wouldn't work/ no sound, or would work with an obvious caveat (a grumble/ hum/ buzz/ crackle/ no volume/ low volume/ excessive heat).. something would tell you of the glitch even if you didn't know what it was.

Both these amps sound fine up to 6 tho. Beyond 6 when I'd expect the sound to start be pushed into distortion, there is none. Right up to 9.5. That is the only thing I can put the term 'issue' to, if indeed it is an issue with the components that are being used.

All the components I have checked, checked, checked The boards. The OT's are wiring. The tubes (I swap tubes form the 12 or so I have/ all fine). The PT primaries, secondary filament wires correct (seemingly so), the PT's rectifier wires correct (seemingly so), the PT's secondary HV wires..... hmm correct if one amp is 254-0-254v and amp2 (if it is a 600 PT I suspect now) is maybe 270-0-270v? A Champ PT, I mean a proper one is 325v-0-325v. Ok if you say " yes they're correct too" then I will leave it/ I can't do anything. But I dont see how you could and therefore, this is the -only- thing that is common to both amps that pings out at me as being outof kilter regarding values of xy or z components and with the greatest respect to all here for their terrific knowledge, I have read nothing that suggests anything more logical than this as being even a possibility of being a cause. I have only read to dismiss it, but nothing tangible to replace it (& I dont consider 'have you got your gtr vol up?' or 'it has to be the gtr' as being tangible, it seems clutching at straws as to a theory).

If someone could lend me a proper Champ PT here in UK then I could dismiss the only glaring thing to me. But this is unlikely/ I cant afford £60 on another 3rd PT, especially when Im told anyway "yours are fine". So Im stumped.

Thanks, Sea Chief.

[Sea Chief]

Post #3?
How hard can it be?
Two wires.
Two test leads.
Set your meter to read Volts/ac.

Pls remind me: ok I'm testing VAC across the rectifier pins 4 and 6.. but do I pull out rectifier? Im sure there was some testing w'tubes pulled involved before. And Am I keeping a speaker load on to test too?

[I will post pics of inside amp2 asap when Ive done this ^ test/ amp is out].

Thx SC.

[Enzo]

I don't even look at the AC much, I just look at the resulting DC.


Here is the deal, you have logicized this up and down. Fine, so logic is not taking you where you want to be. So we propose a step by step assay of the amps. testing something you believe up and down is not at fault is still part of the PROCESS of assessing the amp. The guitar may well be fine, but in doing the simple tests, we MIGHT expose something in so doing.

The amps have schematics and also layouts (wiring diagrams). One shows the electrical relationships between the parts, the other shows the physical relationships. Going over one is not the same as going over the other. Like this: I could point out my shop on a map of the area, or I could print out directions on how to get here. One might say they provide the same information. Maybe they do, but there are times when the map doesn't tell you that a street is closed or one-way access might get in the way. So I could go all logic and reason and when someone tells me to turn left at this corner, I can look at my map and say, "Well, NO, I need to turn right because my goal is right over there..." Yet the reason I needed to turn left was a one-way street. SOmetimes advice that sounds illogical can be good advice.

Good luck.

[Sea Chief]

Enzo-

ok there is logic to suggest the gtr is maybe at fault. But it isn't- and Im just not going over this again, with respect.

Ive had a word with the seller who says is adamant it IS a remade Champ spec PT (just the iron of the 600 PT used) and is 325-0-325v. So as Ive yet to pull amp out- a drag and I'm working late, I'm putting a line under my Q about the PT.

Also, he said he never gets much distortion anyway with x,y,z fender amps, gibson ga-5, tweed Champ, etc etc (? odd- I think he's a jazz man/ no likey growl).. and didn't ever get much distortion from my amp2 anyway.

So maybe it is fine, and it just doesn't distort?. I thought 5F1 Champs did this with relative ease as part of the deal/ an inherrant part of the nature of the amp's character. Well if I wasnt before, I'm thoughrally confused now.

Would any voltage or current tests be of any use? Thanks, Sea Chief.