Lap steel build pickup guidance

[Pagan]

Hi,

This is my first post on this site, I've been reading the info on this site for about a year now and I have to say it has been invaluable to me. I've been planning to build a lap steel for some time now and plan to wind my own pups and would appreciate any guidance anyone is willing to give me.

I've started on the body of the lap but it'll be a while before I'm ready to start winding the pups, I'd like to firm up my thoughts on the pups so I'm ready when the time comes. Also I'll need to decide on dimensions for the pups before I start routing the pup cavities etc.

So here is what I'm thinking.

The lap will be an 8 string model with 2 pups, bridge & neck. I would like these to be single coil and I'm thinking along the lines of a P90, however I'd like to use split coils as per the P-Bass setup, i.e. each pup would essentially be 2 separate coils, 4 cores per coil and staggered physically on the lap body, similar to the P-Bass.

I've done a bit of searching on this site and I think I have got the basics of how this works, please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

On each PUP I will wind both coils in the same direction, I would connect both coil starts together and use a finish for output and a finish for ground.

On one coil the magnetic polarity is N and the other magnetic polarity is S.

When both PUPs are on they should be in phase if wired identically?

I'm looking at doing 10,000 turns of 42 swg on each of the 4 coils, this would raise the impedance a bit as compared to a 6 string P90 but steel pups tend to be a bit higher Z in any case. I'll be using 2 alnico 5 bar magnets per coil as per the P90 build with pole pieces in one pup and probably blades in the other.

That's it really, apart from I'll be using solid wood covers instead of plastic. Something I read on this site was using pcb board as the base which would give shielding, would this give as efficient shielding as a solid metal base?

TIA

[big_teee]

Welcome to the B/H Forum!
I've rewound some and made a few basic pickups for Lap Steels, but don't actually own one.
Most lap steels use a single coil pickup in the bridge location.
Others please Jump In!
Terry

[jason lollar]

they use 2 pickups on occassion http://gregboyd.com/images/instrumen...el_Pickup1.jpg
and sometimes three
https://468596533f4b8f99b64c8d399129.../DSC01720c.jpg

If you are not going to bend strings and you are not going to blend your split coil with a non split coil both coils can be north or south - as long as the direction of the wire opposes on each coil it will humcancel, reversing the magnets has to do with phase- if each coil only senses one group of strings alone, phase doesnt matter

[big_teee]

Thanks Jason.
On the 2 and 3 pickups?
Two splits, would be like 4 pickups.
The 3 pickup you showed, with one full in pos. 2, and one split in 1 and 3, looks interesting.
You could use 1 and 3 together making a humbucker and the middle as a single coil.
mount them all in the bridge plate, or enclose them with pickguard material.

[rjb]

I would like these to be single coil and I'm thinking along the lines of a P90, however I'd like to use split coils as per the P-Bass setup, i.e. each pup would essentially be 2 separate coils, 4 cores per coil and staggered physically on the lap body, similar to the P-Bass.

On each PUP I will wind both coils in the same direction, I would connect both coil starts together and use a finish for output and a finish for ground.

On one coil the magnetic polarity is N and the other magnetic polarity is S

I'm looking at doing 10,000 turns of 42 swg on each of the 4 coils,

Up to this point, your proposed design looks to me like that of the DiMarzio Model P pickup.
If you don't mind ceramic magnets, and your string spacing happens to be 3/8", well there's one of your pups.

I'll be using 2 alnico 5 bar magnets per coil as per the P90 build with pole pieces in one pup and probably blades in the other.

I've read (on this forum) that overwound blade pups can get muddy fast; might want to start with fewer than 10,000 turns.

I think the split-coil design is a reasonable way to get humbucking pickups with close to "single coil voicing".
But, as previously mentioned- do you have room for 4 staggered bobbins?

-rb

[Pagan]

Hey guys thanks for replying to my query so quickly.

Yeah, as you will have guessed I want the single coil sound without the hum, doesn't everybody?

I don't want to go down the conventional humbucker route as steel sounds particularly nice, to my ears anyway, through a single coil pup. I have a Carter Universal 12 pedal steel with a Truetone single coil and it sounds really sweet.

I also have a Gibson SG that I use as a lap steel and recently experimented with a couple of cheap P90's instead of the stock mini-humbuckers, the difference in sound was really noticeable and I'll probably end up putting these on permanently. The mini-humbuckers are great for conventional guitar playing but the P90's sound more mellow which is better suited for steel.

Originally I was thinking about 2 pups similar to the Truetone for the steel that I'm building, but after hearing the P90's on the SG, I'm thinking I'd like to get that sound from the new steel.

There is enough room on the guitar for split coils and it also would look good, although obviously that's not my main priority. However, if I could get a better tone from just using non-split single coils I would go down that route and put up with the hum!

Yes, I wondered about the blades, from what I can see these are more often used in lower Z coils? That's OK though, the idea was to give a choice of tones, so I would probably use less turns as suggested.

I intend to build the bobbins myself using fibre board and either a maple or walnut core. The pup cases/covers will also be wood, one maple, the other walnut. The steel is a mixture of these two woods so I'd like to match in the pups.

So I guess my questions now are -

(1) How much does using the split coils compromise the single coil tone?
(2) If I use a P90 style design for one pup and a blade style design for the other, which position would suit each, i.e. bridge or neck?

If you're interested here's a link to the steel builders page where I am documenting this build.

Steel Guitar Builder ? View topic - Wand 1

Again thanks for your help guys, much appreciated

[big_teee]

Sounds like you have it figured out and under control.
GL,
T

[jason lollar]

Yeah 2 split P-90s would be quite wide which could be squeezed into a coverplate for a stringmaster but 2 split pickups the width of a mustang bass could work much better or even split in line since no ones bending strings on a steel- or at least not more than pulling on a string behind the bar. That three pickup gibson is an odd animal, not totally sure of the wiring on those- its a pretty rare version only made for a short time.

[John_H]

I've been experimenting with stuff similar to a Fender XII lately. Something like that would work too.

... That three pickup gibson is an odd animal, not totally sure of the wiring on those- its a pretty rare version only made for a short time.

A collector friend recently acquired one of these. I'll be working on it soon. When I do, I'll get some pictures of the electronics.

[Pagan]

Sounds like you have it figured out and under control.
GL,
T

LOL Wish I thought that myself

I'm a total newbie to pup building, I have a background in electronics, (bit rusty!), so I can understand most of the theory. However theory and practice are two different animals, so I'm sure there will be a few failed attempts before I get there. Looking forward to trying it though.

[big_teee]

That's what we do here, is beat on things!
I always encourage sticking with simple tried and true designs, starting out.
Let us know how it turns out!
T

[Pagan]

Sounds like you have it figured out and under control.
GL,
T

LOL It may sound that way

This will be my first pup build so I'm a complete newbie to this, I have a background in electronics, (bit rusty now!), so I can understand a lot of the theory. However, theory and practice tend to be two different animals. Anyway, looking forward to getting started.

Yeah 2 split P-90s would be quite wide which could be squeezed into a coverplate for a stringmaster but 2 split pickups the width of a mustang bass could work much better or even split in line since no ones bending strings on a steel- or at least not more than pulling on a string behind the bar. That three pickup gibson is an odd animal, not totally sure of the wiring on those- its a pretty rare version only made for a short time.

I need to check the measurements but I think I can squeeze 2 split P-90s at least on the bridge pup, not so sure about the neck but I'll probably put the railed pup on the neck, as it'll be a bit thinner.

Am I understanding you correctly when you are saying that the P-90s could be split in line that they could be in line with no physical offset, that would certainly be a good option. If so I could build both coils into a single case, that could be a neat solution. It's unlikely I'll be bending strings, even from behind the bar.




It'll be a month or two before I get around to this, but I'll document the builds once I get started.

Here's a photo of my plans, so you can get an idea of what I'm aiming at.

[big_teee]

You may want to flip the split pickups offset around.
I like the bass strings closer and the high strings farther away from the bridge.
I like that on a p-bass. Ibanez does their P-Bass Pickups that way.
It gives richer highs, and cleaner less muddy Lows.
Just a thought.

[Pagan]

You may want to flip the split pickups offset around.
I like the bass strings closer and the high strings farther away from the bridge.
I like that on a p-bass. Ibanez does their P-Bass Pickups that way.
It gives richer highs, and cleaner less muddy Lows.
Just a thought.

Thanks man. I wondered about that, I'm still contemplating what Jason suggested having a split pup but not offset. I've seen others do this but I thought that there was a possibility of phase cancellation of the 2 strings at either side of the split? I might go with what you're suggesting for the bridge pup and try using an "non-offset" split on the neck pup which would probably be easier to do. Then again if I'm using less turns on the neck pup then I could probably fit them in offset. So many decisions!!

I'm up for trying things out and if they don't work out - try again! But as you suggest I'll try and stick to the tried and tested to begin with and take it from there.

Thanks again, this is a great forum.