Any speaker gurus in the house?

[spsimmons]

Hey Guys,
I'm trying to sort through some stuff, get rid of some stuff, and maybe not become a hoarder. Tonight, I pulled out my collection of speakers. Most of them came out of late 1950's- mid 1970's organs, some I don't know where they came from.

I'm hoping to get some help with sorting them into KEEP, SELL, and TRASH piles.

Here's what I think I have:

Eminence 12", 8ohm, 1975 or '85
Cleveland 12", 8ohm, 1974 or '84
Magnavox 12", 8ohm, 1958? Alnico? (have 2)
Magnavox 12", 8ohm, 1968?
Utah 10", 4ohm, 1977
Utah 10", 4ohm, 1970 or '80
10" CTS 1977 or Cleveland 1975, 4 ohm
Rola 8", 8ohm, 1974 or '84
RCA 8x12", 16ohm?, 1971?

Are there any potential gems here? Crap?

Thanks, Shannon

[Chuck H]

There are SOOOOOO many speakers. With just a brand and a size there's not enough info for evaluation. What I do know...

Some old Cleveland and Magnavox speakers sound good for guitar amps.

Utah speakers aren't popular because they were used in Fender amps that also used Jensens and the consensus is that the Jensens sound much better and are more efficient. That said, I think a 10" 4 ohm old school full range loud speaker of any kind would be a nice upgrade for a lot of "Champ" style amps.

You should be able to tell the difference between CTS and Cleveland because speakers have codes on them for identification. It's the first three (or four) digits in a series inked on the edge of the frame.

More Codes

Throw the 8" and the 6X9's out a car window. Unless they sound good. Some 6x9's actually do and you have a pair. In that case just use them for home listening. Boxes aren't too hard to make.

[Audiotexan]

The Eminence is the only one with any "value" in my book.

The big problem with most of these (unless listing on Craigslist) is that you'd have to pack and ship them. That alone will kill most of the potential audience, and unless you're happy with $5 each (assuming it'll take $20-25 in S/H)..then putting any of them on ebay is pointless.

Do your homework though. Sometimes there's certain niche markets that go for unexpectedly good money. And these might fall into that. Who knows. The best way to find out though, is take a few moments per speaker, and login to ebay and check past sales pricing (use the "completed sales" tickbox).

Start ultra narrow (exact brand, model, size), and then fan out as warranted.
Most who are looking for 'antique' speakers know exactly the model they want, as it's usually dictated by the product in hand. Once you get wider than the specific model, you usually end up dealing with "project types" (buyers), and those never garner the same sales price that the 'restoration' or "IT HAS TO BE ALL ORIGINAL" nuts look for.

Personally, I like certain Utahs. So I think that the Eminence and Utah's may be worth your time (at least AFA eBay), and the rest just donate to the local Goodwill, or perhaps call your local electronics shops, and see if they'd be interested. I know of two spots in St.Louis that would buy them, and two in DFW.

But unless you're in a MAJOR metro area, you're pretty much limited to the locals/craigslist for cleaning out "closet cobwebs."

Wish you luck though whatever the case!

Also, second Chuck's idea of:

10" 4 ohm old school full range loud speaker of any kind would be a nice upgrade for a lot of "Champ" style amps.

[J M Fahey]

Neither jewels nor junk but :
counting top to bottom and left to right (you should have numbered them) I spot the only interesting one: 3-2 , which has a large Alnico , might be equivalent to a Jensen P12N , need sideways and front picture to confirm (plus whatever code is printed on it) .

Might be perfect for a Deluxe type amp and justify shipping expense and hassle.

2-1 and 2-2 are true old style Alnicos, would be great for some Tweed 8 to 15W amp, problem is that regular customers don't care about sound (no matter what they claim) but "who used them" . Try to sell them as a pair, as singles they are a joke, plus shipping 1 or 2 costs about the same.

1-3 and 2-3 also should be sold as a pair, would actually work well for a 15/25W tube amp and you might mention that they were used by Fender in such and such models in such and such years, do your homework.
Cut and paste the page which states so in your ad.

In any case, you'll need to take pictures much better than these
I suggest outside , between 10AM and 5PM, when the Sun is behind a cloud, which gives you bright but diffuse light.

The other 12" ones, look like early Eminence , look at the square magnet one and all others same frame type, can only be used/sold as replacement when some local kills the generic 12" in his cheap Peavey/Crate/Fender/housebrand SS combo and of course he does not want to pay full price + shipping for an Eminence/Celestion/etc.

IF you ever are bored and build yourself a "2 knob" tube combo, you might use the 6x9" just because of the fun factor.

They will probably sound quite good there, just that it's almost impossible to find a buyer.

In a nutshell, many of those are the real thing for a small tube project, simply most people is not aware of that.

Oh well.

PS: the most important parameter is: where do you actually live?

[ron vogel]

I'd be interested in buying one or both of the '58 Magnavox 12" if you decide to sell them and the price isn't crazy. I have one here I use, but it rattles. Be nice to replace it or have a spare.

[spsimmons]

You guys are awesome! This is just the kind of feedback I was looking for. It also confirms a lot of what I was thinking.

Chuck H: Most of the speakers have multiple codes on them. My identification of most of them are educated guesses. I used the exact chart that you linked. The one that I can't decide whether it is a CTS or a Cleveland is a speaker that has been living in a Vibratone/Leslie 16 clone that I built. It actually sounds pretty good.

Here are some close-ups of that speaker:

[spsimmons]

You are right Juan, I should have numbered them. My next build is going to be a 5e3, so I'm pretty interested in the 12" you mentioned. I don't currently have a 12" cabinet and the all sound pretty lame unmounted. I probably should go ahead and build a cabinet and see how a few of these sound. I plan to build the 5e3 as a head, so I'll need a 1x12 cabinet anyway.

Here are some close-ups of that speaker that I've tentatively identified as a 1968 Magnavox:

[spsimmons]

Ron: I'm certainly open to offers. I'm not looking to get rich, just to make room for more projects. If it helps fund those other projects, all the better. Those speakers are in great condition and are pretty light, so shipping shouldn't be ridiculous.

[Chuck H]

Ron mentioned that the Magnavox speaker he has rattles. One problem with A LOT of older speakers is that the adhesives used to build them becomes brittle with age. Not usually a problem for lower power clean tones, but if you push them or crank the amp into distortion a lot the glue can fracture and fail. But then, what's the point in having a speaker if you don't use it and it only gets worse with age? I don't actually have a lot of experience with this but I've seen it on a couple of occasions. Speakers from the 70's may use better adhesives than the ones I'm more familiar with (50's/60's). Maybe not. That Magnavox looks pretty sweet. Maybe put a dome dust cap on there for the look

[ron vogel]

Ron mentioned that the Magnavox speaker he has rattles. One problem with A LOT of older speakers is that the adhesives used to build them becomes brittle with age. Not usually a problem for lower power clean tones, but if you push them or crank the amp into distortion a lot the glue can fracture and fail. But then, what's the point in having a speaker if you don't use it and it only gets worse with age? I don't actually have a lot of experience with this but I've seen it on a couple of occasions. Speakers from the 70's may use better adhesives than the ones I'm more familiar with (50's/60's). Maybe not. That Magnavox looks pretty sweet. Maybe put a dome dust cap on there for the look

Well, I've been through A LOT of vintage speakers. Pretty much any PM speaker from say 58 to 62ish is usually ok...sometime after that from maybe 65 and on they changed glues and cone material. It was a change for the worse, and I typically have a hard time finding good examples in that era.

However, organ speakers are typically very well preserved. They were in an organ, seldomly played, and sitting in climate controlled storage for decades (somebody's living room). The Magnavox speakers I mentioned are actually made by CTS. They have a midrange forward sound...and very close to a vintage P12R in timbre (I've had 'em side by side).

I bought the Magnavox in question off ebay, and it was crap the minute I got it. Sounds OK, but push it and it rattles.

[Audiotexan]

The one that I can't decide whether it is a CTS or a Cleveland

Definitely CTS

[J M Fahey]

Ron mentioned that the Magnavox speaker he has rattles. One problem with A LOT of older speakers is that the adhesives used to build them becomes brittle with age. Not usually a problem for lower power clean tones, but if you push them or crank the amp into distortion a lot the glue can fracture and fail. But then, what's the point in having a speaker if you don't use it and it only gets worse with age? I don't actually have a lot of experience with this but I've seen it on a couple of occasions. Speakers from the 70's may use better adhesives than the ones I'm more familiar with (50's/60's). Maybe not. That Magnavox looks pretty sweet. Maybe put a dome dust cap on there for the look

Ron Vogel
Pretty much any PM speaker from say 58 to 62ish is usually ok...sometime after that from maybe 65 and on they changed glues and cone material. It was a change for the worse, and I typically have a hard time finding good examples in that era.

Both are right.

From the 30's to 60's there was one and only "speaker cement" used for everything: nitrocellulose (yes, smokeless powder) dissolved in acetone/ethyl ether .
Not very good but only game in town.

And it keeps evaporating forever, plus nitrocellulose is "unstable" (gunpowder gets stabilized ; adhesives do not) so it degrades even more .

Advantage: is the lightest adhesive of them all, since it's usually 70/90% "paint thinner" , so actual solids left after drying are not much.
It's the main reason behind so called "alnico sound" : very light thin copper on paper voice coils, coupled to very thin undoped paper cones.

Only problem is that they are good only for 10/12/15W , with P12N and old G20 good for 20W .

Later Nomex and the Kapton was used (until today) , glued with strong but heavy (no solvents) Epoxy.

Huge power handling increase, but loss of "the old sound".

There is not such a thing as a free lunch.

[Diablo]

I've been playing around with old speakers, and have reconed a few. I find that some spiders get very brittle with age too. The cones might be fine, but if the spider or the glue holding it down fails, you'll need to recone.

[tedmich]

I for one find older speakers, especially ones with undefined parameters (like Thiele Small) almost completely useless as I usually want to make bass reflex boxes with some predictable sound reproduction. If you want to slap them in an open back cab and play your Bassman through it, have fun. To me old speakers are like vintage caps; late for the landfill. (I may be a minority here). Good luck on that hoarding thing, sounds rare...(LOL)

[Chuck H]

I for one find older speakers, especially ones with undefined parameters (like Thiele Small) almost completely useless as I usually want to make bass reflex boxes with some predictable sound reproduction. If you want to slap them in an open back cab and play your Bassman through it, have fun. To me old speakers are like vintage caps; late for the landfill. (I may be a minority here). Good luck on that hoarding thing, sounds rare...(LOL)

And what's up with all these old wooden guitars too?!? Wood... Pfft. Full of impurities, inconsistency and irregularities. Screw that. Carbon fiber! That's what I'm talkin' about. Nice even tonal response, more resonant and no surprises in production. Why aren't people throwing way those old, beat up Martins and replace then with the new ones that have superior Formica tops? Fools.

Just F'n with you

I do think vintage speakers are only good for a limited number of tones and amps, but they don't belong in the landfill. Certainly modern guitar and bass amps are better off with modern speakers. For one thing, that's what they were designed with! For another, modern amps are generally higher powered than 50's/60's vintage amps. 15w and 25w speakers just aren't up to the work. Some vintage speakers sound great in NOT tuned guitar cabinets and of course are best suited for lower wattages. Good to great for home brew vintage style amps and often good as replacements in vintage manufactured amps.