DRRI speaker (spkr W/ db general Qs).

[olddawg]

If you want to check out speakers on the cheap, check out MCM. They have usable 12" speakers for as low as $18. A lot of people are using these:
Pyramid 12'' Pyramid Pro Audio Woofer | WH12 | Pyramid
Just be aware that the specs are pretty much bs. It's all about if you like them or not.
Warehouse speakers has more expensive knock offs with more reliable specs:
https://wgs4.com/catalog/american-vintage

[Sea Chief]

Ok thanks will keep those in mind olddawg.

The thing most new to me from this general spkr info, is just how much of a volume difference there apparantly is between one spkr and another. I had no idea that one rated at 94db would be ~perceivalbly/ effectively~ 1/2 as loud as one rated 97db. (IE. merely a difference of just '3' when the numbers are all 'almost 100' seems completely counter-intuitive). This makes me wonder about attenuators, & why this factor isnt mentioned fundamentally first off with talk of attenuation devices.

And this also leads to the Q.. is there not a spkr instead of 1/2 loudness of a 97db rated spkr, one of 1/4 loudness perhaps rated at say 91db? (& then 1/8 as loud at 87dB?).

Also whilst Im on the attenuation subject, and in a similar vein.. if my Vibrato channel no.2 input is 2/3rds as loud as no.1 input, why couldn't this vol-drop system be furthered in theory to 1/2, 1/3rd, 1/4 "input" using the same procedure?

Then Id have perfect attenuation using a 91dB speaker, and using my "inputs no.3 and 4" to use my DR at its vol6 for eg, at home-volume levels?

SC

[Richard]

Here's a link that may be helpful:
Decibel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perceived loudness will differ from the dB ratings. 1 dB is considered the smallest difference we can hear, I believe 6 dB will seem twice as loud.

The lower sensitivity inputs are similar to turning your guitar volume down, you will not get the same tone at a lower level, especially if you are driving your amp into clipping. Eminence does have a speaker with a built-in attenuator that may interest you.

[J M Fahey]

I had no idea that one rated at 94db would be ~perceivalbly/ effectively~ 1/2 as loud as one rated 97db. (IE. merely a difference of just '3' when the numbers are all 'almost 100' seems completely counter-intuitive).

Well, it's a *logarithmic* scale, while you are used toma *linear* one.
100W is twice as much as 50W on a linear scale, but 3dB more in a logarithmic one.

And then, why not just use the linear one instead of the pesky Log one?
Because human senses, mainly sight and hearing , have a logarithmic response, so using that scale is WAY more accurate.

In fact, you are already using a Log scale as a Musician: each octave is not a fixed (linear) distance from the one above or below but double or half , also expressed better in a log scale.
440 Hz is one octave higher (you might call it 3 dB higher and not be far from the truth ) than 220Hz , and so on.

If you were to nitpick ignoring that, you would not understand that 1 octave apart 440Hz and 220Hz are 220Hz apart ... but still one octave apart 80Hz and 40Hz would only be 40Hz apart, around 1/5 the earlier example, and another proof that Humans (and all other animals) work on absolutely non linear scales as far as perceptions go.

By the same token, standing 1 block away in open air from a speaker instead of half a block away (2X the distance) drops measured volume by 4X , yet a human will find it weaker but still understandable.

No doubt Evolution made us that way, so we could talk to people and listen to loud sounds close by, but also hear weaker sounds far away .

This makes me wonder about attenuators, & why this factor isnt mentioned fundamentally first off with talk of attenuation devices.

I've seen MANY attenuators rated in dB :
Marshall PowerBrake specs:
[QUOTE] With the Marshall Powerbrake you can drive your amp to the limit without losing control -- or your hearing!

Features
PB-100 Power Brake
Attenuation Method Active
Attenuation (dB) 3-33 (11 step rotary dial) <-3dB per step
Power Handling 100 watts RMS
Dummy Load Option Yes
Switchable Impedance Yes: 8 ohm or 16 ohm
Speaker Outputs 2 (1/4 inch jacks)
Cooling Self-powered fan
Construction Metal chassis with dual front handles
Dimensions 8.86" x 4.73" x 7.87" (225 mm x 120 mm x 200 mm)
Weight) 10.58 lbs (4.8 kg)

And this also leads to the Q.. is there not a spkr instead of 1/2 loudness of a 97db rated spkr, one of 1/4 loudness perhaps rated at say 91db? (& then 1/8 as loud at 87dB?).

Yes, but sound is not the same.
Less efficiency speakers are so because they have smaller magnets/thick heavy cones/long voice coils/all of the above, and that translates into a muddy speaker.
Just buy one of those $20 DJ woofers (Pyramid, etc.) and you'll see for yourself.

Also whilst Im on the attenuation subject, and in a similar vein.. if my Vibrato channel no.2 input is 2/3rds as loud as no.1 input, why couldn't this vol-drop system be furthered in theory to 1/2, 1/3rd, 1/4 "input" using the same procedure?

Then Id have perfect attenuation using a 91dB speaker, and using my "inputs no.3 and 4" to use my DR at its vol6 for eg, at home-volume levels?

You can attenuate the input or the gain as much as you want, that's what amp and guitar volume controls are for; but then sound will be clean; the point of cranking tube guitar amps is that they sound so good when power tubes start to clip or beyond.

If you "crank" your amp by setting amp volume to 10 but then pad signal by using an attenuated input as you suggest, it will not be "cranked" any more, so, what's the point.

All attenuators let you crank your amp for real, clip as much as it will, and *afterwards* pad the *speaker output* down to usable levels, keeping the good flavour.

Some musicians go as far as having a "silent cab" , a speaker inside of a closed cabinet, front also covered, walls with lots of padding so almost no sound comes out, and a microphone inside to capture that sound and PA or reamplify it.





I suggest you add an attenuator to a speaker you like; then the day you need full volume, you just remove it.
It may even be a simpler fixed attenuator (low efficiency speakers are also "fixed" by the way )

[guitician]

That second box really needs some damping like the first one has, or else the mic will pickup a lot of reflections.
I have noticed that tightly suspended cones usually give a brighter tone and the ones with smooth curvilinear cones seem the tightest.

[Dave H]

Of course, there IS the significantly cheaper option of modding the amp to suit the too-bright speaker...Justin

But the speaker is not bright enough

I agree, it would be cheaper to make the amp brighter.

[g1]

Some musicians go as far as having a "silent cab" , a speaker inside of a closed cabinet, front also covered, walls with lots of padding so almost no sound comes out, and a microphone inside to capture that sound and PA or reamplify it.

I'm going to see if we can get one of these for the drummer .

[olddawg]

I'm going to see if we can get one of these for the drummer .

Braaahhh.. Ha ha! One of the last band so was in, we had a 5' acrylic panel tri fold around him! Dummer sets stage level. Alert! Alert!

[loudthud]

I prefer drummers to be in a cage, or a padded room.

[eschertron]

I prefer drummers to be in ... a padded room.

Maybe one with pillows and soft music too...

Torry Castellano from 'the Donnas' band publicity shot.

[Sea Chief]

JM Fahey- great reply thanks. Really interesting that, Im still trying to get my head round it though: I get the basics of a linear diagonal line at 45degrees on a scale/ x,y up/ down etc.. and a curved line for a log. Putting the notion of dB loudness relating to these is still not quite so obvious to me, but its becoming a bit clearer.

Why cant there be a 86 db speaker though available? then I wouldnt have to arse about with hideously ugly attenuators: theres just s'thing fundamentally just "wrong'' with them to me, & also apparantly not the safest for an amp anyway (so why anyone would risk their £800 amp with one seems madness). And strewth! those padded boxes look even worse! mind you, I could knock one of those up easily enough.. and having a head away from such a wretched looking thing only needed for the EXT cab, at least would retain some fender aesthetic dignity).

My hifi speakers are 88db so surely a ~86db one isnt the stuff of a madman's dream..

[eschertron]

JM Fahey- great reply thanks. Really interesting that, Im still trying to get my head round it though: I get the basics of a linear diagonal line at 45degrees on a scale/ x,y up/ down etc.. and a curved line for a log. Putting the notion of dB loudness relating to these is still not quite so obvious to me, but its becoming a bit clearer.

Why cant there be a 86 db speaker though available? then I wouldnt have to arse about with hideously ugly attenuators: theres just s'thing fundamentally just "wrong'' with them to me, & also apparantly not the safest for an amp anyway (so why anyone would risk their £800 amp with one seems madness). And strewth! those padded boxes look even worse! mind you, I could knock one of those up easily enough.. and having a head away from such a wretched looking thing only needed for the EXT cab, at least would retain some fender aesthetic dignity).

My hifi speakers are 88db so surely a ~86db one isnt the stuff of a madman's dream..

I was going to say something 'smart-arse-worthy', then I thought better of it.

Making less efficient speakers is not really a speaker builder's goal; but knowing how to change the doping, or stiffness of the ring (for ex) to increase efficiency can be used to change those parameters to reduce efficiency. Find a tech who can work on your old beater speakers to give it the sound you want at lower volumes. Chances are the speaker will get mellower with any such treatment too.

You might lose a patient in the process, but if it's a cheap speaker that doesn't please you altogether now, what do you have to lose?

[guitician]

Wasn't there a speaker that had a varying magnet to reduce it's sensitivity on the market at some point?

[Sea Chief]

I was going to say something 'smart-arse-worthy', then I thought better of it.

Making less efficient speakers is not really a speaker builder's goal; but knowing how to change the doping, or stiffness of the ring (for ex) to increase efficiency can be used to change those parameters to reduce efficiency. Find a tech who can work on your old beater speakers to give it the sound you want at lower volumes. Chances are the speaker will get mellower with any such treatment too.

You might lose a patient in the process, but if it's a cheap speaker that doesn't please you altogether now, what do you have to lose?

So hang about.. I need to make my ring looser-?

I think Im going to make a muffle box thingy, and just stick it on my head.

[Tom Phillips]

Wasn't there a speaker that had a varying magnet to reduce it's sensitivity on the market at some point?

That would be Fluxtone. Their web page is at www.flutonespeakers.com