Gibson SG faded- pickup suggestions.

[Sea Chief]

Hi- have a 09 faded SG which Im finally sick of the dark muddy tone of- its hopeless! my £20 thiftstore chinese squier sounds miles better. But, I do like the gtr & couldnt "just sell & get one with P90's best idea" as Ive luckily landed this one (in terms of neck/ feel- its nr ideal).

Id love to put P90's in, I yearn for this snappy bright sound (what a lightish, thin-body slab of mahogany should sound like, totally opposite to this stupid-thick fat semi acoustic jazz mo-fo sound).. but 2x new P/U + new batwing pickguard = a £helluvalot + lottawork.

What Im wondering is 1) as I never use the bridge P/U alone & tho it too is hardly that bright, maybe just change the neck P/U to something -much- less muddy? is this feasable? or do they come specifically a combo as non-splittable as it were? Then if doesnt do it, then later I could reluctantly change the bridge I guess.

Or 2) change both pickups to a nice airy Dearmond type (this is the sound I love tbh: a similarly thinish mahogany gretch I played recenty had some in and the tone was a different planet to my flabby sg).. or something very similar, but I must need to keep the pickguard, so humbucker-sized is a must (IE 1/2 ammouht of work, no routing or new pickguard to buy).

Why gibson made this gtr sound like this is bewildering- I see recently the faded comes with P90's so I missed out there. My guess is they had a ton of 490r/498t left and had to get rid of them & just knocked up a cheap sg to shift them quick.

Any thoughts? thanks SC

[Jazz P Bass]

Doesn't that SG have a three way pickup selector?

And two separate volume knobs?

How does it sound in the middle position, twiddling with the volume knobs, for balance either way?

[eschertron]

How does the guitar sound to you unplugged? Do the strings ring out nicely, or is there some tone-sucking resonance that makes the guitar go thud with each note? If the guitar 'speaks' well acoustically, maybe a lighter gauge strings would help reduce the muddyness.

Also, if you haven't lowered the pickups (increased the space between pickups and strings) then screw them down as far as you can. Is there a difference in the sound you get? Fiddling with the electronics in the guitar can help too. Make sure the pots are 500k (or bigger, if you're trying to brighten it up!), and maybe disconnect the tone control to hear if there's a difference. Play with the vol knob all the way up. Does the tone sound different than on 9?

Bottom line: Try all the simple and cheap ways to improve the setup of your guitar before throwing down money for a set of pickups. JM2P (pence)

[Sea Chief]

How does the guitar sound to you unplugged? Do the strings ring out nicely, or is there some tone-sucking resonance that makes the guitar go thud with each note? If the guitar 'speaks' well acoustically, maybe a lighter gauge strings would help reduce the muddyness.

Also, if you haven't lowered the pickups (increased the space between pickups and strings) then screw them down as far as you can. Is there a difference in the sound you get? Fiddling with the electronics in the guitar can help too. Make sure the pots are 500k (or bigger, if you're trying to brighten it up!), and maybe disconnect the tone control to hear if there's a difference. Play with the vol knob all the way up. Does the tone sound different than on 9?

Bottom line: Try all the simple and cheap ways to improve the setup of your guitar before throwing down money for a set of pickups. JM2P (pence)

[Yup 3 way selector & 2 vols JazzP- it sounds balanced either way using the vols, as it no doubt would have been made].

It rings out really nicely escertron unplugged, a nice zingy sound. New strings too. 10's on again from 9's before.. grubby set of 9's sound spot-on identical to new set of 10's tbh; new 9's would ping out a tiny bit more yes.. but Im talking huge pickup mud here, for which v small string variations cannot change. Pickups as low as I dare: too low & they get a bit weak sounding, so they're low but-not-silly-low. Still fat mud.

Vol pots.. I assume 500k (as is info on www) and 300k tones, but how to tell w'out markings on back? I think even if I did swap in say 500k vols if I did fond 300k vols in I still would be talking fractions of difference, like say difference between 9's and 10's string, rather than fundamental big-stylee 'throw neck pickup in the river' change I need.

[eschertron]

OK so you've done all that. My only recommendation for pickups is to get something underwound by today's standards, usually with "vintage" in the name or description. Fewer turns, less DCR, generally means less midrange growl (or mud?) from the pickup.

edit: I still think you might be surprised by what you hear if you unsolder the tone control from the guitar wiring. If it's easy to do, that is...

[Sea Chief]

Ok thanks thats a start. So can I just put in something "underwound" with the stock 490 bridge? or do pickups have to match a figure of the other one.. I guess if underwound, then there might be a mismatch to the 'overwound' bridge, if it is: maybe this is reason it sounds so poor/ like a blanket over the speaker- its awful/ Im playing it now, dlx reverb ('bright') vibrato channel, treb 9, bass 2, vol low (usually brighter @ lower vol Ive heard mentioned) to get any nr normal tonal balance with P/U selctor in middle, gtr pots max. And its still pretty muffled/ far from bright. I dont even go near neck P/U alone as it sounds like a dullard fatso jazz gtr.

One reason I went for the DR is Id heard theyre bright so I could get this sg to sound normal by dialing down the treb. Tbh thentone pots dont do an awful lot, & I call this DR far from bright even with a crap strat nr max treb (my WEM is miles brighter/ as Id expect an amp to be @ treb maxed & its even a Bass amp!). With the SG and the DR vibrato channel @ treb 5/ bass 5.. it sounds like its underwater its so muffled & bassy. This darkness seems to follow me like a bad smell I just cant rid it. 5E3 + gibson (completely unplayable), Champ, now DR. I had to put on a 600pf bright cap -600!- to get anywhere nr the WEM & even then its still a 'dark' amp. Its all a bit dissapointing & taking up nr incessant ammounts of consternation, threads, head scratching & effort to rid it. Making me go a bit crazy tbh.

I just want, if I can to lob this neck pickup in the sea- and put something normal sounding in.

[olddawg]

SGs usually are not muddy. First check and see if your bridge and neck pickup have not been reversed and are oriented properly. Next, temporararily wire your bridge pickup directly to the jack. Use the volume control in the amp. Still muddy? Plug it into a a different amp. Still muddy? If so, see if you can find a used PAF style pickup for the bridge and move your old bridge pickup to the neck. If you simply like P90s, you can also coil tap your pickups and use them as a single coil. P90s are single coil pickups. You will have a little less output but will definitely be brighter. There are also ring mount drop in P90 style pickups available.

[Sea Chief]

SGs shouldnt be muddy at all- the whole thing is theyre a lighter version of the LP and snappier/ zingiest of all the gibson range (bar the crap melody maker).

But not the Faded SG. Others have said the same about it & these pickups being muddy. Im such an SG fan for such a long time I know how they should sound (and how they fundamentally shouldnt- like this). I think gibson has cottoned on too as now the Faded SG is P90's.

There's nothing wrong with it, nothing to test to check if AB or C is miswired or a wrong component in. No. Its simply a bit rubbish thats all, specifically the 490's.

Now if I could make them single coils.. that would be an idea. How do i do this? if its reversable (in case I do sell sometime later) that sounds ideal.

Ive checked and they use 300k vol pots, and 500k tone pots for this faded SG.

So maybe 500K vol pots to start?

[eschertron]

So maybe 500K vol pots to start?

Do as olddawg suggests and bypass ALL the guitars controls for a test. Even with wires hanging out the back of the guitar, you can hear what the pup all by itself sounds like. Then decide.

[Sea Chief]

Do as olddawg suggests and bypass ALL the guitars controls for a test. Even with wires hanging out the back of the guitar, you can hear what the pup all by itself sounds like. Then decide.

But I have absolutley no idea how to do this. if it means unsoldering the back of the pot.. it looks like I need a whopping great wattage iron-?

Is the idea with this to effectively make it as bright as it could possibly be, & if brighter to then maybe go 500k?

What on earth gibson were doing with this damn gtr ive no idea- why the heck didnt they just put a 500k in stock if its known to brighten the damn thing up and stupidly dark with a 300k in, and what they had in 50s/60s SGs anyway?!

[olddawg]

But I have absolutley no idea how to do this. if it means unsoldering the back of the pot.. it looks like I need a whopping great wattage iron-??!

This is ABSOLUTELY untrue. It's a VERY simple thing to do with a standard solder station. Just take a picture before you start so you don't get confused. Also download an SG/LP wiring diagram. If you can't do this, I suggest you take the guitar to a real tech and explain your problem.... Or simply sell it and get something more to your liking. The pickups in it may already be set up for coil tap. Someone in the pickup forum section could probably walk you through it, but not if you simply can't wire a pickup directly to a jack. If you do not want to disturb the rest of the harness, you could always solder the bridge pickup to a new jack hanging or even to a cable for test. If it is really muddy, I suspect something in the tone control rolling off the treble. That's why I said wire it direct and eliminate all other variables. Btw, I played an old LP JR DC with the tone control disconnected for years. (The 59 in my picture) It gave me more treble and more output, and that was with a vintage P90. P90s are not known for brightness. A standard HB is brighter. If you want REALLY ice pick bright, try a mini HB.

[Sea Chief]

Ok I can physically do the job then Im sure.. but what am I doing exactly was my point? am I desoldering both P/U wires, or just one? its outer shield to the gnd lug of the jack, the inner wire to the +

And what is the point exactly of doing this? will it be brighter or darker- Im not following the principle or reason of your suggestion.

Im at a loss to your suggesting a P90 is not known for its brightness & a std HB is brighter. This is so completely counter what Ive kown for all of 30 years Ive played all sorts of gtrs. Last week I played a friends LP with P90's and it was the brightest/ thinnest sounding gibson Ive ever heard; it was about 4x as bright as my SG in comparison. Not even remotely close. Nor any P90 guitar Ive ever played or heard, theyve been always min 2x if not 3x as bright. This is as an absolute certainty in all of my30 yrs of gtr playing shops, friends gtr collections, loaned gtrs etc etc etc.

P90's are single coils & are simply always inherrantly brighter, thinner sounding than HBs (I thought this was pg1 gtr knowledge tbh). Have you ever known a strat to sound thicker, darker than a LP with HB's? Its not possible (unless HBs split into single coils of course). Its like saying an upright piano is fuller than a grand. It just simply cant be.

Anyway thanks tho, SC.

[eschertron]

There's going to be two wires from the bridge pup. One will be ground, the other the signal (hot). The signal wire will go to a terminal lug on a vol or tone control, then wend its way toward the jack. Disconnecting the signal wire from the first place it visits allows you to bypass all the other stuff in the wiring harness. clip a test lead to the ground connection, and the other end of the test lead to a spare-part 1/4" jack (sometimes when I'm in a hurry I clip it right to the sleeve on a guitar cable). Clip a second test lead to the signal wire (connected only to the pup now) and the other end to the 1/4" jack. Now that pup and only that pup, no extraneous controls or components will be heard when you play the guitar through the amp in question. If you want to audition the other pup do the same thing there too.

[big_teee]

Deja Vu, Anyone?
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37746/
T

[elipsey]

Deja Vu, Anyone?
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37746/
T

i know, right?

500k volume pots fixed my sg. do it already