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Thread: Electric fence security question...

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    Electric fence security question...

    Since my hobby electronics knowledge merely consists of trial & error, I thought of better asking you Profis, before my fence idea kills an intruder.
    Inside my house fence I thought mounting an electric fence barrier, consisting of a super simple circuit. I reckon it should be quite safe or is it?
    Please have a quick check on it, if there's something lethal. Thank you in advance for your expert advice.
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    Last edited by jjj; 07-29-2015 at 03:39 PM.

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    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    yikes! too simple!

    The typical electric fence has tiny 20kV pulses of ~10msec at 1Hz, any more and this thing will kill. I believe its only the pulses short duration that make it nonlethal.

    See circuits here:
    A Homemade Fence Charger, Energizer Circuit Explained | Homemade Circuit Projects

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    [QUOTE=jjj;391949]...before my fence idea kills an intruder. Inside my house fence I thought mounting an electric fence barrier, consisting of a super simple circuit. I reckon it should be quite safe or is it?
    Please have a quick check on it, if there's something lethal.../QUOTE] I have experience with electric fences. I strongly recommend that you simply purchase a commercially available unit.

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    Old Timer Tom Phillips's Avatar
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    And you should read up on installing the fence wiring that will be electrified. You cannot just connect the energizer to an existing fence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    Sounds great... yet, on eBay it says: 110V (...we got 220V) "May not ship to Chile"...
    So, it sounds bad!!!

    The next best offer (12V input) then is: US $64.79, plus shipping: $51.25 , plus import charges: $35.53
    Total... a cheap: $151+ (Hell, forbid!)

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    Last edited by jjj; 07-29-2015 at 12:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Phillips View Post
    And you should read up on installing the fence wiring that will be electrified. You cannot just connect the energizer to an existing fence.
    I like to fit it onto the inside my property side of the high fence and label it with a scull & two bones plus faces of Mao, Hitler, & Stalin... or Isis
    If then still some idiot tries to enter... it will serve him right! I already build and applied this circuit for several years at Quilpue and taxi drivers called my house: "La fortaleza!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    yikes! too simple!

    The typical electric fence has tiny 20kV pulses of ~10msec at 1Hz, any more and this thing will kill. I believe its only the pulses short duration that make it nonlethal.

    See circuits here:
    A Homemade Fence Charger, Energizer Circuit Explained | Homemade Circuit Projects
    Yes, I saw this one too, but I searched for something even simpler to build. Also, it doesn't say how many joules it spits...?
    Whereas my super-simple circuit idea is adjustable from a low tick to higher Triac ticks... Maybe the low tick will be quite safe? How to guess or measure its output?

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    Last edited by jjj; 07-29-2015 at 12:45 AM.

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    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    I'm sorry you feel so unsafe, I'd recommend you don't try to make anything so dangerous and unsophisticated that it might kill an innocent neighborhood (or your own ) kid.

    If it kills you, no problemo, at least you'll be at peace

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    If commercial electric fences killed, you would have a lot of dead farmers and hunters.
    They are used everywhere in the south.
    Rule #1, don't pee on the electric fence!
    https://www.google.com/search?q=elec...AmhzAS-vsPM%3A
    T

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    Check up on any legal liability issues before you do this. It's one thing to use them for livestock, completely different to use them for security.
    If there is any way someone could profit from such a "shocking experience", they will find a way to do so. Agree with big_teee that they should not kill people, but they could cause problems for someone in poor health. Tasers aren't supposed to be able to kill either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    ..."May not ship to Chile"... plus import charges...
    Another instance where it would be useful to all if you put your location in your profile. That will help people know how best to offer advice.

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    So, you all reckon that my simple circuit seems to be technically quite safe? I mean, I could reduce the Cap's capacity so, the transformer won't get too much juice. At least the output is isolated from the active AC.
    As mention, I wished I could somehow verify its strength. Maybe I should look at building a HV meter/tester with with Caps and neon lamp? Something that gives me an estimate of its strength so, I can adjust its power to the lower margin. Any ideas on that?
    Maybe I should connect a smaller transformer with 220V output? That would at least lower the voltage, for it's only for a short fence of some 4 meters. The moment a thief touches one of the electrified three rows of barbed wire, he will give up and/ or consider ...the the neighbor's fence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    Inside my house fence I thought mounting an electric fence barrier, consisting of a super simple circuit. I reckon it should be quite safe or is it?
    Please have a quick check on it, if there's something lethal. Thank you in advance for your expert advice.
    Why use an isolation transformer and then short it out by connecting its output back to mains Neutral? What happens if Live and Neutral become reversed? I'd disconnect the bottom of the secondary from Neutral and connect it to Ground.

    I once made and electric fence energiser using a car ignition coil and a multivibrator. The farmer I made it for decided to test it by touching it and ended up at the other side of the barn. "Hey! Dave it works great!" he said. That was a long time ago. In these more litigious times I think I would just buy what I needed.

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    Last edited by Dave H; 07-29-2015 at 05:02 PM.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    So, you all reckon that my simple circuit seems to be technically quite safe?
    NO, we are ALL telling you that your idea is UNSAFE .

    It may easily land you in jail.

    There must be a reason that NO electric fence uses line frequency power at any voltage, and ALL use ultra narrow ultra low current very high current pulses.

    Any electric fence installed in Chile must be Government certified and follow :
    http://www.sec.cl/pls/portal/docs/PA...icas/anexo.pdf

    which by the way is the Chilean translation of International IEC 60335:
    http://www.sec.cl/pls/portal/docs/PA...s/NSEG2_76.pdf

    if anybody from outside can touch your fence you'd better get a commercial, certified one and keep the certificate of compliance handy or you'll be in big trouble.

    FWIW I live in Argentina, very similar Law as in Chile, we both accept IEC rules.

    In July last year some workers were repairing my external home wall, from a neighbour's home, and commented me that they felt some "tingling" when touching the wall; commented same thing to the street corner cop.

    Next morning (7 am) 5 cops in 2 patrol cars knocked my neighbour's door and strip searched his home until they found a homemade device very similar to what you want to use.
    Looks like a small girl had also complained about "tingling walls" when playing in front of his door but so far nobody had taken her seriously.

    He is being legally prosecuted today and in BIG trouble.

    Worst thing for me is that since "my" workmen talked to te Police, now he does not allow them in and the job is still unfinished.

    Oh well.

    A few certified Chilean suppliers:
    CERCO-ELECTRICO.CL Empresa Lider En Cercos Electricos
    Cercos Eléctricos
    Protección Extrema | Cercos Eléctricos
    Cerco Electrico - MercadoLibre Chile
    this one shows all certifications:
    :::FIRST SECURITY:::
    • ¿Es Legal el Cerco Eléctrico en Chile? Si, nuestro Cerco Eléctrico está fabricado bajo la norma internacional ISO 9001-2000, la cual está autorizada por la Superintendencia de Electricidad y Combustibles (SEC), para ser comercializada en nuestro país. Además contamos con los certificados de aprobación y homologación del producto por Departamento de Ingeniería Eléctrica de la Universidad Católica Nº 0131-11-RM
    EDIT: SEC Chile


    (the Government Dept involved in this), requires that your Electrical Fence is:
    * Installed by a Certified Electrician
    * you fill the licence requirement form (and have it approved, of course)
    * you supply an installation plan
    * the fence must be at a certain height and/or have a barrier so nobody can touch it by accident (thieves are exempted )
    * carry approppriate warning signals
    http://sec.custhelp.com/app/answers/...NBR0FzbQ%3D%3D

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    Last edited by J M Fahey; 07-29-2015 at 05:32 PM.
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    NO, we are ALL telling you that your idea is UNSAFE .

    It may easily land you in jail.

    There must be a reason that NO electric fence uses line frequency power at any voltage, and ALL use ultra narrow ultra low current very high current pulses.
    True 'nuff.

    British newspapers reported a case some years back where a gardener put his own "electric fence" around his yard to keep his neighbor's dog out. Rigged it straight to the 240V AC line. Killed the dog. Landed the gardener in jail for a couple years. I've a feeling that's not the only time this sort of thing has been done.

    In USA, and I'm sure it's the same most anywhere, there are laws against "man traps." This certainly includes electric fences whether the proper type or something cooked up by amateurs. When proper electric fences are used out on the prairie, no problem. In a densely populated area, not so much.

    One of my customers, a farmer by trade, had electric fencing to keep his cows in a corral when necessary. Short hi voltage pulses about 20 seconds apart. He said he could watch a cow push that fence and take jolt after jolt until it finally had enough and gave up. Dumb as cows they are - unlike a person who can figure out it's the fence that's giving the unpleasant shock. Cows aren't too quick to pick that up.

    Constant hi voltage electric fencing may have been used to keep people from running away from concentration camps & prisons, that's not done anymore far as I know.

    I'm in a part of town that was overrun by lowlifes of all sorts, and at one time I considered the electric fence idea. After research, no fence. Thank hevvins most of the criminal neighbors have moved on, but that situation may not be permanent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Dumb as cows they are - unlike a person who can figure out it's the fence that's giving the unpleasant shock...
    Leo, you know I came from Newburgh... when I moved to the country, one of my first jobs was weedeating the fenceline at the farm I was working at. Three hours later, my boss asked how it was. I said, fine, but my hands are numb and my arms hurt bad, and that there was something wrong with the weedeater sparkplug cable, cuz I kept getting shocked every few seconds.

    His reply? "I asked Phil to shut off the fence this morning... guess he forgot! Sorry bout that,here's where the switch is for next time."

    <SOME> people are smart enough to figure it out... this is all well before we became quite so litigious... And to think I coulda made an easy fortune. Hey, they're billionaires.

    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    I'm sorry you feel so unsafe, I'd recommend you don't try to make anything so dangerous and unsophisticated that it might kill an innocent neighborhood (or your own ) kid. If it kills you, no problemo, at least you'll be at peace
    1) I have no kids... because I happen to enjoy only the first bit in the creation of children.
    2) I am "shock- prove and enjoyed a dozen of them, thus far; played around with tube Amps currents. Measuring its live DC circuit with one hand in the pocket.
    3) Hence, with this fence circuitry I'm only desperately trying to help and save the lives of criminals so, they can continue to rob our houses.

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    Thanks Juan for your good advice,
    Yes I agree, Christina is as bad as our chichona Bachelet. That's why I feel free to look after myself in this wild South. So, I just buy a cheap commercial unit. That offers me the chance to blame the manufacturer ...in case the poor thief got stuck with the loot.
    Since it's installed high-up, on the inside of the fence, from outside it will only be accessible to thieves. So, it's quite safe and I don't need to worry much about Chilean laws.
    Besides, I had this simple unit safe guarding my house in Quilpue (near Olmue) for many years and most young thieves were clever enough to respect my fortaleza (fortress). On top the fence I used military type of barbed wire, which prevented them to get to the electrified three rows of barbed wire, in the first place.

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    So, let's hope I won't get too many young thieves in poor health, able to climb a 3 meter high fence and back again with the loot!

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    So, let's hope I won't get too many young thieves in poor health, able to climb a 3 meter high fence and back again with the loot!
    As long as you have a goat or some animal, you can say that the Electric Fence is for keeping in and protection of the animals.
    You can't normally shoot a dog here in the states?
    However if the dog is after your livestock, it is a different matter entirely.
    Should be the same thing with the electric fence if it is up for livestock!
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    As long as you have a goat or some animal, you can say that the Electric Fence is for keeping in and protection of the animals.
    You can't normally shoot a dog here in the states? However if the dog is after your livestock, it is a different matter entirely. Should be the same thing with the electric fence if it is up for livestock!
    T
    No, I can't use this excuse, because the house is in a non-rural area. Yet, then again thieves usually love to shroud or disguise themselves in sheep costumes and so, I might be forgiven to mistake them as such...

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    thieves usually love to shroud or disguise themselves in sheep costumes and so, I might be forgiven to mistake them as such...
    Baaaah, I can't believe this wild and wooly tail, aherrm, tale. Shear nonsense.

    BTW I did ask local planning/zoning board about barbed wire because I'd like to have a triple row atop my own dream fence. They put the kibosh on that right away. You might say they took offense... "What if some kid got hurt climbing over your fence?" Yes geniuses, that's exactly WHY I want barbed wire on top.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj
    thieves usually love to shroud or disguise themselves in sheep costumes and so, I might be forgiven to mistake them as such...
    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Baaaah, I can't believe this wild and wooly tail, aherrm, tale. Shear nonsense.
    Pssssttt !!! Leo !!!!!! ..... he's not talking literally but referring to the old saying about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_i...p%27s_clothing


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    jjj, you may not live in a rural area, but SOMEWHERE no too far away, I imagine there is farm land. And where there are farms, there are also farm supply companies. The fencer you saw that was 110v may not work, but in your country there will be similar products that will work on your mains voltage. Try looking at a farm supply store.

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    Rather than shocking the hell out of them?
    Why not design, or use something that makes a strobe or a loud alarm siren go off.
    I bet it would have the same effect without the liability problems?
    T

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    "Help yourself so helps you God!"... Breaking News >>> I finally found a 100% safe and effective solution: Using a harmless A Fly Swatter circuit!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcwNpPEcjIQ

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    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    that's one screwy blond...Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjj View Post
    "Help yourself so helps you God!"... Breaking News >>> I finally found a 100% safe and effective solution: Using a harmless A Fly Swatter circuit!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcwNpPEcjIQ
    In order to use it properly, you have to dress in short shorts and pigtails. I don't know if that's your 'thing'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    In order to use it properly, you have to dress in short shorts and pigtails. I don't know if that's your 'thing'.
    Thx for the fun... but seriously now: My endeavor is to build a non lethal electric fence on top of the existing fence, using a harmless fly swatter circuit as a thief deterrent. I could also use my 1V5V gas lighter circuit (from a cigarette lighter), which might be even better, because it has got pulsed output! I tripled its output with a Li-ion battery to reach 15KV and it flips quite strongly... Yet, since the current is that low, I suppose I would need to use 4 barbed wires to connect +V and -V outputs alternatively or will only +V barbed wiring work??
    Could you knowledgeable technicians please advice me on that? Thank you in advance for your good advice.

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    Electric fences operate by having one side of the output connected to an efficient ground. This is usually one or more dedicated copper-clad rods driven into the ground. The fence is insulated and connected to the 'hot' energizer output. So even in a situation where you have more than one fencing strand (such as used in rabbit protection), all the strands are connected to the 'hot' side.

    Animals though are very different to humans in the way they get shocked. A fencer voltage that may not appear to give too much of a shock to a person can give a fair jolt to an animal because either a) it's very small, or b) it has four legs in contact with the ground, or c) animals touch things with their noses when investigating. They don't wear rubber sneakers, either.

    There used to be high output energizers (now outlawed pretty much everywhere) called 'grass burners'. They put out high voltage and a fair current, and were intended to burn any vegetation away that grew against the fence which would cause a regular fence to short out. They were responsible for many fires and would kill small animals. These were also used (illegally) for protection against human intruders due to the severity of shock.

    All energizers need a safety spark gap to protect the unit against an open circuit or high-resistance output. If not the transformer will eventually fail. Also consider radio, TV and other interference.

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    [QUOTE=Thank you Mick Bailey [/QUOTE]...for the Info. As mentioned, I aim to build a harmless electric fence on top of the existing fence, using a pulsed harmless fly swatter or a pulsed gas lighter circuit as a thief deterrent, intended to deliver an unpleasant shock and thus, repel the would be (mostly young) thief.
    So, in this case even the best ground earthing might be futile, because the thief will be off ground. In this case I might be better to use alternative wiring (live/ground/live/ground etc.) by placing the barbed wires about an inch apart. I think such a harmless, yet effective circuit is quite useful, because the thief does not know its true level of danger. Thank you in advance for your good advice.
    (Since I'm getting on in age I also thought of building an electrified cane, locked to my wrist, to stop attackers to apply it on me. This cane would also be handy for mitigating dog attacks...) Thank you in advance for your good advice.

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  33. #33
    Don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    So even in a situation where you have more than one fencing strand (such as used in rabbit protection), all the strands are connected to the 'hot' side.
    This is not alway true, in areas where the literal ground is too dry, or poorly conducting, grounded strands will be added to the fence, usually the bottom strand, but can also be alternating. It is also used to help the "delivery" to "subjects" with high resistance hides.

    I believe the electric fly swatter uses the same technique, there are isolated ground wires and the fly must come into contact with both, other wise it could just land on it like a "bird on a wire".

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  34. #34
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    (Since I'm getting on in age I also thought of building an electrified cane, locked to my wrist, to stop attackers to apply it on me. This cane would also be handy for mitigating dog attacks...)
    Don't know what it would do others, but said cane would certainly electrify YOU, since electrical circuits must be closed and the path to ground would be through your body.

    Unless you carry a small ground rod and a hammer with you and tell thieves and dogs: "wait a second until I safely ground this cane so I can safely repel you "

    There's no such a thing as a "floating/independernt" single voltage, it must always be referenced to "something", in this case ground.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  35. #35
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    Yes, of course, the fly swatter has a red, made of alternative ground and active fires, woven as separate, closely placed wires.
    The more important thing is the fact that it is "harmless" otherwise it could not be sold to families with children... and that's what I want to merely ward off would be thieves. In this context I find it useful as additional deterrent. So, I'm quite confident that pulsed fly swatter circuit should not land me in jail, since I will be able to vindicate its origin and harmlessness to the court's electronics expert.
    Of course, for the cane I prefer applying a 3V battery PS and the circuit of a gas lighter, for if I'm physically attract by assailants or dogs, my can has to bite them, too. In such a case the court won't lament the demise of the assailant or dog.

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