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Thread: PAF Pickups & Effects of TPL

  1. #71
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    Concerning TPL.

    The Leesona 102s came equipped with a fixed TPL from the factory set to 1 of 8 TPL options. To change TPL on these machines you had to change the Worm Gear and the Worm Shaft – not an easy task. If these machine came equipped with the optional “Auxiliary Gear Case” or “Auxiliary Gear Head” further TPL options were available (10.8 to 875 for serial numbers 1-944).

    For the Leesona 102-B models serial number 1527 and up, and those 102 models with serial numbers 945-1526 with “Auxiliary Gearing”, TPL was available from 11 to 900 per the manual’s “Gear Train” chart.

    Both winders with the optional “Auxiliary Gearing” would require a rather large number of extra gears to accommodate the stated TPL range.
    This technique has just got to be so much easier. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tpl.JPG 
Views:	141 
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ID:	36219

    This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.

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    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
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  2. #72
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    This technique has just got to be so much easier. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tpl.JPG 
Views:	141 
Size:	11.1 KB 
ID:	36219

    This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.
    That's Not Vintage, you know that won't make a PAF!
    Just Kiddin, Couldn't pass that up!
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 10-26-2015 at 03:29 AM.
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    Supporting Member JGundry's Avatar
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    For are three PAF TPL counts I can verify for PAF's (actually 4 but two of them or so close I'll call it 3). Gibson used 4 machines to wind PAF's. The TPL was set by Gibson in the most practical of manners, which meant basically, do what the winder manual says. The only exception to this is the machine that they made that has no manual. That machine breaks all the rules. There is a lot of assumptions people make about how PAF's were wound and before I had any of the actual machines I was as guilty as anyone. I think most assume every PAF was wound on a machine with a lobed cam. But of the 4 machines only one used a lobed cam. I'm doing videos to tell how the machines that wound PAF's are different. I have two of these videos done.

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    Last edited by JGundry; 10-25-2015 at 12:55 AM.
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  4. #74
    Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    This technique has just got to be so much easier. Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tpl.JPG 
Views:	141 
Size:	11.1 KB 
ID:	36219

    This is truly a very cool and informative discussion, and I apologize, but I'm weak and just couldn't help myself.
    Yeah, I agree technology really is amazing. When I think of what has changed in my lifetime, so far, I’m astounded. As a kid I would have never even imagined that a device that could fit in my pocket would instantly connect me to the entire world. And having over 200 TV stations to pick from instead of 3-7 is mind blowing too.

    Cars that drive themselves are just around the corner. Drones delivering things to my door are in the offing. Robotic surgery is truly a blessing, one that I am personally very grateful for.

    But, technology can also be a double-edged sword. I remember as a kid going into Manhattan to Manny’s, Sam Ash, and all the other stores and trying out 5 or 6 Fender Strats or Teles and while each felt basically the same, 1 or 2 would feel and sound astounding to me. Same with the Gibsons, Guilds and Gretschs. What I loved was the inconsistences in each guitar. I could love one guitar while my band mate could hate it.

    But technology has dramatically reduced the “once loved’ inconsistences of guitar buying. Today I can go into any store and buy a guitar even without playing it and not be surprised of the results. Technology made this possible.

    I am not sure if I want a car that drives itself…I like the feel of the open road and how my car handles on curvy streets. I like going to the store and chatting with the people there when I buy something. But I suppose in a few years I’ll have a driverless car and order something while in it that will be dropped off at my door by a drone before my driverless car gets me home.

    When it comes to guitars, today I don’t get the one that “calls my name” feeling any more…they all just seem to say “I’m good- buy me”. To me, some of them seem to lack a unique personality because of the consistency from one to the other. To me it was because of all those inconsistencies years ago that made that 1 or 2 special guitars and pickups sound so good, no, sound great.

    CNC winding machines are great, easy to use and have predictable results. But it is the little quirks of each mechanical auto-traverse machine that make them so unique and desirable. Like how one of my three Bachis stutters a bit at one end of the layer, while the others don’t … I use that to my advantage to get a certain sound. I could program that into a CNC but would I get the same sound? Similar but different.

    We guitar players seem to not like radical change. We play 50 or 60 year old guitars or new guitars mostly designed 40 plus years ago. We like vintage style pickups. We like old amps or old sounding amps. Sometimes we gravitate to something totally new.

    To me, as a pickup builder, I need a consistent product from one to the other and one batch to the next. But, I prefer to wind on these old winders with all their little quirks that I can use to my sonic advantage. Yes, I’ll have to change gears and get grease and oil on my hands doing it. But I love it and love the results.

    But, who knows, I just might be getting a drone delivery of the latest CNC winder in the near future. In the meantime let me try to find something to watch on TV!

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    Last edited by Jim Darr; 10-25-2015 at 04:34 AM.
    =============================================

    Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    Yeah, I agree technology really is amazing. When I think of what has changed in my lifetime, so far, I’m astounded. As a kid I would have never even imagined that a device that could fit in my pocket would instantly connect me to the entire world. And having over 200 TV stations to pick from instead of 3-7 is mind blowing too.

    Cars that drive themselves are just around the corner. Drones delivering things to my door are in the offing. Robotic surgery is truly a blessing, one that I am personally very grateful for.

    But, technology can also be a double-edged sword. I remember as a kid going into Manhattan to Manny’s, Sam Ash, and all the other stores and trying out 5 or 6 Fender Strats or Teles and while each felt basically the same, 1 or 2 would feel and sound astounding to me. Same with the Gibsons, Guilds and Gretschs. What I loved was the inconsistences in each guitar. I could love one guitar while my band mate could hate it.

    But technology has dramatically reduced the “once loved’ inconsistences of guitar buying. Today I can go into any store and buy a guitar even without playing it and not be surprised of the results. Technology made this possible.

    I am not sure if I want a car that drives itself…I like the feel of the open road and how my car handles on curvy streets. I like going to the store and chatting with the people there when I buy something. But I suppose in a few years I’ll have a driverless car and order something while in it that will be dropped off at my door by a drone before my driverless car gets me home.

    When it comes to guitars, today I don’t get the one that “calls my name” feeling any more…they all just seem to say “I’m good- buy me”. To me, some of them seem to lack a unique personality because of the consistency from one to the other. To me it was because of all those inconsistencies years ago that made that 1 or 2 special guitars and pickups sound so good, no, sound great.

    CNC winding machines are great, easy to use and have predictable results. But it is the little quirks of each mechanical auto-traverse machine that make them so unique and desirable. Like how one of my three Bachis stutters a bit at one end of the layer, while the others don’t … I use that to my advantage to get a certain sound. I could program that into a CNC but would I get the same sound? Similar but different.

    We guitar players seem to not like radical change. We play 50 or 60 year old guitars or new guitars mostly designed 40 plus years ago. We like vintage style pickups. We like old amps or old sounding amps. Sometimes we gravitate to something totally new.

    To me, as a pickup builder, I need a consistent product from one to the other and one batch to the next. But, I prefer to wind on these old winders with all their little quirks that I can use to my sonic advantage. Yes, I’ll have to change gears and get grease and oil on my hands doing it. But I love it and love the results.

    But, who knows, I just might be getting a drone delivery of the latest CNC winder in the near future. In the meantime let me try to find something to watch on TV!
    Hi Jim

    I've got a cnc winder and even it has its little quirks and you have to keep an eye on it. How the bobbins are fitted differing wire gauges tension etc. I still use a cobbled up lathe with speed controller and wind by hand for my single coils. The benefit of hand winding is tension control and instant wobble adjustment although tpl is probably all over the place. As for modern cnc guitar production the cutting is by and large accurate, although look closely at the inlay reccesses on chinese guitar, also cnc is not going to make a crappy piece of wood that hasn't been properly seasoned into a decent guitar. As I have been repairing and setting up guitar new and old for the last 40 years I don't really see any great improvements in guitars as the base materials seem to be getting worse. I should be retired in 5 years or so and am curious to see what kind of garbage the major guitar factories will be producing to keep profits high and costs low. This might be a good time for all the small time makers out there to step in. The only problem is most guitarists these days wouldn't know the difference between a piece of chipboard (particle board I think it's called in the USA, ) and a piece of rosewood. When I started all those years ago the guys were talking about growth rings per inch quarter or slab sawn wood and were generally in the know. This was all without the internet. Now we have the internet hundreds know what rosewood is they've seen it on a screen or read about it from someone else that either has never seen it or seen it on the screen so on ad infinitum. Just watch out when that drone delivers your new cnc winder through the glass window as no one programmed it to check if it was open !!
    Cheers

    Andrew

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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    Yeah, I agree technology really is amazing. When I think of what has changed in my lifetime, so far, I’m astounded. As a kid I would have never even imagined that a device that could fit in my pocket would instantly connect me to the entire world. And having over 200 TV stations to pick from instead of 3-7 is mind blowing too.

    Cars that drive themselves are just around the corner. Drones delivering things to my door are in the offing. Robotic surgery is truly a blessing, one that I am personally very grateful for.

    But, technology can also be a double-edged sword. I remember as a kid going into Manhattan to Manny’s, Sam Ash, and all the other stores and trying out 5 or 6 Fender Strats or Teles and while each felt basically the same, 1 or 2 would feel and sound astounding to me. Same with the Gibsons, Guilds and Gretschs. What I loved was the inconsistences in each guitar. I could love one guitar while my band mate could hate it.

    But technology has dramatically reduced the “once loved’ inconsistences of guitar buying. Today I can go into any store and buy a guitar even without playing it and not be surprised of the results. Technology made this possible.

    I am not sure if I want a car that drives itself…I like the feel of the open road and how my car handles on curvy streets. I like going to the store and chatting with the people there when I buy something. But I suppose in a few years I’ll have a driverless car and order something while in it that will be dropped off at my door by a drone before my driverless car gets me home.

    When it comes to guitars, today I don’t get the one that “calls my name” feeling any more…they all just seem to say “I’m good- buy me”. To me, some of them seem to lack a unique personality because of the consistency from one to the other. To me it was because of all those inconsistencies years ago that made that 1 or 2 special guitars and pickups sound so good, no, sound great.

    CNC winding machines are great, easy to use and have predictable results. But it is the little quirks of each mechanical auto-traverse machine that make them so unique and desirable. Like how one of my three Bachis stutters a bit at one end of the layer, while the others don’t … I use that to my advantage to get a certain sound. I could program that into a CNC but would I get the same sound? Similar but different.

    We guitar players seem to not like radical change. We play 50 or 60 year old guitars or new guitars mostly designed 40 plus years ago. We like vintage style pickups. We like old amps or old sounding amps. Sometimes we gravitate to something totally new.

    To me, as a pickup builder, I need a consistent product from one to the other and one batch to the next. But, I prefer to wind on these old winders with all their little quirks that I can use to my sonic advantage. Yes, I’ll have to change gears and get grease and oil on my hands doing it. But I love it and love the results.

    But, who knows, I just might be getting a drone delivery of the latest CNC winder in the near future. In the meantime let me try to find something to watch on TV!
    Hi Jim

    I've got a cnc winder and even it has its little quirks and you have to keep an eye on it. How the bobbins are fitted differing wire gauges tension etc. I still use a cobbled up lathe with speed controller and wind by hand for my single coils. The benefit of hand winding is tension control and instant wobble adjustment although tpl is probably all over the place. As for modern cnc guitar production the cutting is by and large accurate, although look closely at the inlay reccesses on chinese guitar, also cnc is not going to make a crappy piece of wood that hasn't been properly seasoned into a decent guitar. As I have been repairing and setting up guitar new and old for the last 40 years I don't really see any great improvements in guitars as the base materials seem to be getting worse. I should be retired in 5 years or so and am curious to see what kind of garbage the major guitar factories will be producing to keep profits high and costs low. This might be a good time for all the small time makers out there to step in. The only problem is most guitarists these days wouldn't know the difference between a piece of chipboard (particle board I think it's called in the USA, ) and a piece of rosewood. When I started all those years ago the guys were talking about growth rings per inch quarter or slab sawn wood and were generally in the know. This was all without the internet. Now we have the internet, hundreds know what rosewood is, they've seen it on a screen or read about it from someone else that either has never seen it or seen it on the screen so on ad infinitum. Just watch out when that drone delivers your new cnc winder through the glass window as no one programmed it to check if it was open !!
    Cheers

    Andrew

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  7. #77
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    Mr. Darr, Mr. Gundry - thank you for your replies. There is an amazing amount of detailed knowledge here. I am getting quite good sounds now so in a way it doesn't matter what the old machines did exactly, especially since I'll never get to use them. Please bear in mind I am not planning to go into commercial production and at the moment am only making pickups for myself. I build my own amplifiers and tune the sound to my own taste so wanted to do the same thing with pickups. The history of Gibson's pickup making techniques is nevertheless very fascinating and educative.

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  8. #78
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    as the old saying goes..... live in the present, looking to the future and being mindful of the past.

    most of us like the classic tones.... and i am sure we all have our own take on what that classic sound is. that's the beauty of pickup making... each one of us can make a perfectly valid product using similar materials, however they can sound vastly different

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