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My First Breadboarded Amp

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  • My First Breadboarded Amp

    I've been waiting for about 7 weeks for tube sockets I ordered from China. They were lost for about 3 weeks by China Post and have now been in U.S. customs for almost a month (the seller was awesome. They're shipping me a new order on Monday even though it's anyone's guess which will arrive first. Either way I'll have 54 new sockets instead of 27)...

    Anyway, last weekend I bought a PT and OT for a Valve Jr and decided I'd use some sockets I already had (not usable on the PCB I've got for the breadboard) and stick them in a computer power supply (which has just enough space to build a Valve Jr). So right now, half of the power supply chassis is on my breadboard (see photos) with 2 sockets in it. I built the circuit last weekend, but couldn't get it working. Part of the problem was my wires were way too long. I re-laid it out this morning and trimmed about 5' of wire in the process and it worked right off the bat. The sound file was the very first time I played with it. I was just checking the range of the gain and master volume.

    The circuit itself is actually a variation of the first Valve Jr. I didn't have any 2.2K resistors for biasing the preamp stages, so I ended up going with red LEDs (Vf=1.6V) and that seems t work fine, though I"m going to do a little experimenting.

    I used a 1M grid leak on the first preamp instead of the 68K the schematics call for. And I used 56K grid stopper because I didn't have any 68K resistors either (got some on order). And obviously, I added the master volume.

    I'm really, really pleased with the way it's worked out. It's not completely quiet, but for not being inside a chassis and the wires running through the air, it's pretty darn quiet.

    When I first decided to do the breadboard idea, I was afraid it was going to be like those toys you buy when you're a kid that look so awesome on TV but aren't nearly as cool in real life. I didn't know if it was going to be as easy a platform to work with as I imagined. The good news is, it totally is. I can't imagine an easier way to breadboard amps. I highly recommend building one of these. It took me about 45 mins to an hour to breadboard the Valve Jr. from scratch (having already cut the hookup wires and having the components selected) using just a little flathead screwdriver.

    Oh, and there are 3 transformers there. The two silver ones on the far side are the PT and OT for the Valve Jr. The black one is a Thordarson that I use for the filaments. The Thordarson plugs into the wall and the Valve Jr PT plugs into the variac, so I can maintain stable filaments. Because the Thordarson isn't loaded on the HT, each heater line runs through three 1 ohm 1W resistors in parallel (for 1/3 ohm) to drop the voltage down to 6.29V (otherwise it's up around 7.15V). You may also notice I ran the filament line under the board. It was just to kind of have it away from the other stuff.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Oh, and the wiring scheme:

    White - Cathode
    Yellow - EL84 grid
    Black Coax - preamp grids
    Orange - Plate
    Red - HV (except for the one in the foreground which is signal from the second preamp to the master volume pot)
    Pink - Screen
    Green - Filament
    Black - Ground

    The pots have green on the ends and yellow on the wiper.

    Comment


    • #3
      So I've toyed around with the values quite a bit. No question this is a fantastic way to breadboard an amp. It makes it trivial to set up say two side-by-side cathode bias options (say LED vs. Resistor w/bypass cap) in adjacent lugs of the terminal barrier blocks and put in a switch to go between them. Then I can play and switch back and forth between the two and hear the difference. Doing this, it took me about 15 minutes to run through about 10 different biasing options for the two stages of the preamp to find what appealed to me most. Then I did side-by-side of the EL84 biased with and without the bypass cap to hear the difference there, and so forth. Really fun to be able to whip through so many variations so quickly.

      I think I've decided how I want the preamp at this point: First stage biased with a LED and second stage biased with a 1.5K resistor and 22uF cap (voltages are almost identical, but the tone is definitely different when switching between the resistor/cap combo and LED on the second stage).

      So here's what I'm measuring so far:

      V1a: Vk=1.55V, Va=211V
      V1b: Vk=1.53V, Va=215V

      The EL84 is biased with a 200 ohm resistor and a 22uF cap. Voltages and current on the EL84 are:

      V2: Vk=11.3, Vs=324V, Va=341V, Ik=24.3

      If I'm not mistaken, this works out to less than 9W plate dissipation, which is pretty low for Class A, isn't it?

      Incidentally, this is the schematic I'm using as the basis.

      Obviously the preamp is biased as explained above. R1 has been replaced with a 1M grid leak. R5 has been replaced with a 250K log pot. R14 is 200ohm instead of 220ohm. Otherwise, it's pretty much the schematic.

      Comment


      • #4
        Got a problem. Wife and daughter are out, so I finally got a chance to crank the amp. Sounds fantastic on my Les Paul. Goes to hell with my strat. It's like there's a loud bug zapper in a swarm of flies.

        With the Les Paul I have the gain and MV full blast. For the strat, the MV is full blast, but the gain is only about 3 or 4 before this starts happening and it only gets worse. I'm hoping someone recognizes the sound. Sorry about recording quality. All I have is my phone.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
          Got a problem. Wife and daughter are out, so I finally got a chance to crank the amp. Sounds fantastic on my Les Paul. Goes to hell with my strat. It's like there's a loud bug zapper in a swarm of flies.

          With the Les Paul I have the gain and MV full blast. For the strat, the MV is full blast, but the gain is only about 3 or 4 before this starts happening and it only gets worse. I'm hoping someone recognizes the sound. Sorry about recording quality. All I have is my phone.

          That breadboard is insane

          The Strat samples sound like it might be oscillating in bursts. Pretty nasty. I image the lack of a chassis on the breadboard is conducive to that sort of thing. Does backing down the MV help?
          Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yeah, with the MV down, it goes away. I was waiting for my wife and daughter to leave so that I could crank it up. I thought it was going great while playing with the Les Paul, but when I plugged in the strat, it just sounded terrible.

            You may very well be right that the lack of chassis is contributing to it. I also just realized that the coax from the gain pot to the second stage preamp grid isn't grounded. I'll try grounding that and see if it fixes it. Unfortunately, my wife and daughter are back home, so no cranking it right now. Hopefully I can get them out of the house for a few minutes at some point.

            I've actually considered making a faraday cage with a cardboard box wrapped in aluminum foil and just dropping that over the breadboard for testing to see if that would help.

            I still don't have a screen resistor on it. I wonder if that would have any impact on it? The schematic doesn't call for one, but Merlin seems to think they're pretty important.

            Comment


            • #7
              Oh, and the breadboard: Not my idea. I saw a picture of a similar one and that's what inspired me. The creator of that one is on here, but I can't remember his name... Couldn't find the original message where he chimed in and took credit for it. But yeah, it's an awesome idea. Wish it had been mine :-)

              Here's the original.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
                Yeah, with the MV down, it goes away. I was waiting for my wife and daughter to leave so that I could crank it up. I thought it was going great while playing with the Les Paul, but when I plugged in the strat, it just sounded terrible.

                You may very well be right that the lack of chassis is contributing to it. I also just realized that the coax from the gain pot to the second stage preamp grid isn't grounded. I'll try grounding that and see if it fixes it. Unfortunately, my wife and daughter are back home, so no cranking it right now. Hopefully I can get them out of the house for a few minutes at some point.

                I've actually considered making a faraday cage with a cardboard box wrapped in aluminum foil and just dropping that over the breadboard for testing to see if that would help.
                Yes, screening signal wires will help.

                I think if the base were an aluminum sheet and the wires were laid close to it, it could help too.

                Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
                I still don't have a screen resistor on it. I wonder if that would have any impact on it? The schematic doesn't call for one, but Merlin seems to think they're pretty important.
                There are important for power tube protection purposes but they will make very little difference to this issue.

                Wife and kids? You need t git yerself some of >these< !!
                Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Right now the thing is sitting on carpet with a concrete floor beneath it, so covering the top should be sufficient for blocking noise. We'll see.

                  I can't really test until my wife and daughter are out of the house again. Maybe I can convince them to go outside for a few mins tomorrow when I get home from work.

                  And what is up with those $249 ear plugs? That's insane!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
                    Right now the thing is sitting on carpet with a concrete floor beneath it, so covering the top should be sufficient for blocking noise. We'll see.

                    I can't really test until my wife and daughter are out of the house again. Maybe I can convince them to go outside for a few mins tomorrow when I get home from work.
                    I really don't think covering the top will do much. A screen would need to be all the way around and if the problem is internal coupling then it won't help at all.

                    Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
                    And what is up with those $249 ear plugs? That's insane!
                    Isn't it just! Has to be a typo or a box of 10,000 I guess.

                    Seriously, how about a dummy load with attenuator for your speaker?
                    Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nick, thanks for all your help. It looks like it was just noise. Finally had some time in the house alone, so I tested it out for about 10 mins at full blast and it was MUCH better. Just a tiny bit of it every now and then. I also noticed that the idle noise is lower than when I've played it cranked before as well, so I'm pretty sure it was just some sort of interference that it's not getting right now.

                      I'm really, really pleased with the tone. Especially since I rebiased the power tube with 150 ohm (at 200, I was getting 24mA current. With 150, I'm getting 30mA which gets me up around 10W plate dissipation). It gave it more headroom, but it also just sounded so much better when it broke up. I was going to put in a tone knob, but now I don't even want one. It would probably just screw it up...

                      It really just sounds like a fantastic little rock & roll amp. So I think for my next amp, I'm going to go for a bluesier tone.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Okay, something definitely isn't kosher... I swapped out the 6BQ5 I had for an EL844 (a 9W version of the EL84) and the "bug zapper" was back in force. Not only that, but something smelled like it was burning. Don't know what it was. The bug zapping seemed to get worse as time went on and got so bad (I'm wondering if I damaged the tube, actually) I shut it down. I didn't have the volume high at all when this was going on. Had the MV up around 2 and the gain around 4, so really low. It definitely isn't interference.

                        Probably unrelated, but my screen and plate voltages on the power tube are much closer than they were when I measured before. Depending on the bias resistor I get.

                        150 ohm: Va=325V and Vs=318V
                        200 ohm: Va=337V and Vs=329V

                        I'm thinking with the voltages that close, I really ought to have a screen resistor in there. But as you said, I don't think that's the issue.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I know it's okay to run the plates over 300V, as long as plate dissipation is kept reasonable. What about screens? Is 329V too high? (BTW, added the screen resistor)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You pulled the power tube, and installed a different one, and that was when it started acting funny. SO pull that new tube, and put the old one back in. Still funny? or back to working OK?
                            Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pdavis68 View Post
                              Okay, something definitely isn't kosher... I swapped out the 6BQ5 I had for an EL844 (a 9W version of the EL84) and the "bug zapper" was back in force. Not only that, but something smelled like it was burning. Don't know what it was. The bug zapping seemed to get worse as time went on and got so bad (I'm wondering if I damaged the tube, actually) I shut it down. I didn't have the volume high at all when this was going on. Had the MV up around 2 and the gain around 4, so really low. It definitely isn't interference.

                              Probably unrelated, but my screen and plate voltages on the power tube are much closer than they were when I measured before. Depending on the bias resistor I get.

                              150 ohm: Va=325V and Vs=318V
                              200 ohm: Va=337V and Vs=329V

                              I'm thinking with the voltages that close, I really ought to have a screen resistor in there. But as you said, I don't think that's the issue.
                              What Enzo said is obviously a valuable lesson in debugging: To be sure that A caused B it has to be repeatable.

                              Anyway, I still think oscillation is the root cause. That is turn is caused by unwanted coupling. The saving grace of your layout is that no two wires are are very close so reducing such coupling. What is lacks is the chassis. It like two capacitors in series with ground (chassis usually) at one end, the interfering signal at the other and your signal in the middle. You jig things to make the top capacitor small relative to he bottom one. In your case the bottom one is zero as there is no chassis.

                              The problem with high screen voltage is excessive dissipation and lower voltage will help. Series resistance will reduce that further and in particular protect when driving hard. The EL844 is limited to 2W. You will see the screen grid glow if it's too hot. The JJ datasheet specifies 300V as the limit for the screen voltage but what the real limit is anyone's guess. A lower screen voltage will reduce the gain a little - that might help your problem too.

                              Where do you have the grid stopper on your EL844? You should locate it right at the grid pin of the EL844. If that doesn't help try a 4.7K.
                              Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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