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Thread: First Time Build Problems

  1. #1
    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    First Time Build Problems

    Hi everybody. This is my first post here. It looks like a great forum. I am in the process of completing my first amplifier build, but I am experiencing some problems. I am hoping somebody on here with more experience has some ideas. The kit I chose was the TubeDepot kit. I figured it was a good starting point for a beginner. Here is the layout.

    https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1400188816

    The problem is, the amp is perfectly clean all the way up. It simply does not sound like a 5e3. It gets plenty of volume, and the clean is beautiful, but I am looking for that raunchy 5e3 sound. Also, I discovered something that concerns me and took a video of it. If I have the bright volume at 12 and get the normal volume up around 8, one of the power tubes does something strange.

    https://youtu.be/xSc_s2CmMZc

    Here is a picture of my build.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am happy to post voltage readings if anyone is interested.

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Hi! From one relative newcomer to another, welcome to the place. You will get lots of help and friendly analysis here

    I'm not familiar with the tube depot kit, but it looks nice!

    What tubes are you using in V1 and V2? Different mu tubes will produce more or less gain.
    I watched the video. On the cheap laptop speakers I have here, I thought I heard a click or sputter, but could see nothing. If the amp is doing something strange, then double-check the wiring, look for bad solder connections, take voltage readings, maybe swap tubes to see if the problem follows the tube; be specific with your conditions, including things like whether there's anything plugged into the input.


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    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
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    We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
    MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey


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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    Sputter is a good word for it. I am using JJ 12AX7 tubes in V1 and V2. My power tubes are JJ 6V6 and the rectifier is a JJ GZ34. I know people like a 12AY7 in V1 for more headroom. I may decide to do that later, but right now headroom is not my problem at all. I have swapped the power tubes to see it was a bad tube, but which ever one is in V4 flickers like that on certain settings. I also tried a pair of Chinese 12AZ7s that I had laying around just for fun. I have a Weber 12A125A that I will be putting in at some point, but I want it to be working properly first. I will post some voltages when I get a chance. Probably tonight.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    Ok, Here are my readings.

    Rectifier
    2- 359.6 DC
    4- 307 AC
    6- 307 AC
    8- 359.6 DC

    V4
    1- 321 DC
    2- 2.9 AC
    3- 352.7 DC
    4- 317.4 DC
    5- 0
    6- 0
    7- 2.88 AC
    8- 19.4 DC

    V3
    1- 318 DC
    2- 2.88 AC
    3- 350 DC
    4- 317 DC
    5- 0
    6- 0
    7- 2.86 AC
    8- 19.34 DC

    V2
    1- 167 DC
    2- 0
    3- 1.267 DC
    4/5- 2.86 AC
    6- 208 DC
    7- 14 DC
    8- 46 DC
    9- 2.89 AC

    V1
    1- 178 DC
    2- 0
    3- 1.19 DC
    4/5- 2.89 AC
    6- 175 DC
    7- 0
    8- 1.18 DC
    9- 2.88 AC

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Can you get the voltages on the power tubes when the noise is happening? And a closer gut shot of the board and pot wiring.
    If it's too clean maybe check the polarity of the first bypass cap? (just wildly guessing.)

    Your voltages seem inline. The voltages on my 5e3 junk box build were much lower primarily because of my transformer and it gets real nasty( in a great way) with humbuckers.

    nosaj

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Here is a 5E3 with voltages at specific test points.
    Oval voltages are Vac. (signal)
    Rectangles are Vdc (static)

    57 Deluxe, Fender 57 Schematics (01 JUN 07).zip

    I do not know why one tube socket would act up.
    There is nothing inherent in the circuit.

    Triple check your work.

    To add: these amps need a good hot signal to be driven hard.
    There is no indication of what your input signal is.

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    Missing connection on cathode bypass cap(s)? And more concerning me than the sputter is the flashing inside that tube... arcing? Short?

    Justin

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    "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
    "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
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    Senior Member TimmyP1955's Avatar
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    Are the power tube grid stoppers on the board or on the sockets? If they aren't on the sockets, JJs might misbehave as yours are.

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilliamsaudio View Post
    The problem is, the amp is perfectly clean all the way up.
    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    The voltages on my 5e3 junk box build were much lower primarily because of my transformer...
    Subbing a 5Y3 for the current rectifier tube might lower voltages enough to get some grunt? (But fix the power tube circuit/socket problem as a priority!)

    edit: do the heater voltages seem low to anybody else?

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    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
    If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
    We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
    MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey


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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Yes 5.87v does a little

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Can you elaborate on this, please?

    Thanks,
    nosaj

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    I reworked a few solder joints. The power tube no longer cuts out. Yes, this build does have screen grid resistors on the power tube sockets.

    Thanks Jazz P Bass for the schematic. I will take a look at those test points now that I seem to have fixed my problem at V4. As far as my input signal, I've just been trying it with a few of my guitars. Both single coil and humbuckers.

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  13. #13
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Just remember that you need a good hot signal from the guitar.

    That means, no screwing around, guitar volume maxed.

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    That video clip sounds like an old car or boat that won't start because the choke is open.

    dwilliamsaudio, are you in a country with 220/230/240V power? Using the 240V primary winding in a country that only has 220V or 230V at the wall could explain the globally-low voltages. Many of us think 350V is about perfect plate voltage for a 5E3, but I imagine the 5AR4 is the only thing propping up your B+.

    Paradoxically, I think the voltage situation could be to blame for the overly-clean sound -- the 5AR4 is preventing the output section from sagging, but the low heater voltage could be reducing gain up front.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    Actually, I am in the US. I am using this power transformer.
    https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1382030387

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilliamsaudio View Post
    Actually, I am in the US. I am using this power transformer.
    https://d1sjrnpi226dnf.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1382030387
    Gotcha. Much harder to miswire that one without it being painfully obvious.

    I'm curious now if your voltmeter might be off, or your wall voltage really low. What does a brand-new 9V battery read on your meter?

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    A brand new 9V measures 9.26V. It is pretty much in line with two other voltmeters I used at work today to test the same battery.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    OK, I've looked at my DC voltages on the test points from the schematic that Jazz P Bass posted. I will do the all the AC test points after I can figure out how to generate a 100mVAC 1khz sine wave. I have a tone generator that will do about 300mVAC, but not 100. Maybe I'll run something out of Pro Tools. Or maybe there's an app for that.

    My readings are on the left, the correct voltages from the schematic are on the right in ().
    TP1: 360 (370)
    TP2: 320 (320)
    TP5: 250 (250)
    TP6: 17.48 (21.2)
    TP7: 207 (204)
    TP8: 45.6 (46)
    TP9: 166.5 (165)
    TP10: 1.25 (1.25)
    TP11: 1.168 (1.33)

    I don't know if any of these look alarming to anybody, but I was hoping for a more obvious discrepancy. I also should probably have pointed out that I did change out the .022ufd coupling cap for a .01 as recommended by TubeDepot's manual. I don't know what, if anything, this would effect on my meter for any specific test points.

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Oh another question what kind of guitar are you using and pickups?

    Thanks,
    nosaj

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Make sure Tube Depot didn't accidentally send you 10 Ohm resistors for the heater's artificial center tap instead of 100 Ohm. Just thinking out loud as to what may cause the lower heater voltages. Does your build have a fuse on the heaters? Can you verify that you're not dropping voltage across that?

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    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
    If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
    We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
    MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey


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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    I am using 2 different guitars. I have a couple more I could try. 1 is a telecaster with Dimarzio Area T pickups. The other a Dot with Seth Lover PAF style pickups. Neither of those guitars are especially high output. But I am turning up the amp most of the way and it's clear like a PA system.

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Any chance you can measure the output of the guitars?
    What is the vol control on the guitars set to?

    nosaj

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    They are both 100 Ohm resistors. I really wanted that to be it. It would have been an easy fix. The only fuse is the main fuse on the control panel. I'm not exactly sure how to check my guitar output, but I always play everything all the way up. Could I somehow be losing Input signal before it gets to V1?

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Just for kicks -- and I willfully admit this is kind of a tangent -- have you measured the unloaded filament voltage (all signal tubes and the light bulb pulled)? If it's not at least 6.3V, I'd wonder if the transformer was miswired or something. What voltage do you have at the wall?

    The HT secondary voltages can be expected to sag a little with tubes drawing current, but shouldn't be down to 307V. For comparison, I'm using a similar unit (Weber W025130) in a cathode-biased 2x6L6 amp which taxes the HT and filament windings more than a Deluxe, and the secondaries still read about 330V with 120V at the wall.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    If I understand your test I am only getting 3.4V AC. I removed the bulb and all tubes other than the rectifier tube. Do I want to remove the rectifier as well? I have 123.6V at the wall.

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  26. #26
    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilliamsaudio View Post
    If I understand your test I am only getting 3.4V AC. I removed the bulb and all tubes other than the rectifier tube. Do I want to remove the rectifier as well? I have 123.6V at the wall.
    Okay, since the rectifier tube is on a different winding (as you know), that's fine for these tests.

    So, that'd be 6.8V unloaded for the filaments if you measured from one side to the other instead of ground -- I'm feeling better about the filament wiring. What do the HT secondaries measure without the signal tubes in place? That corresponds to pins 4 and 6 on the rectifier tube.

    Since I tend to imagine everybody has as much time to kill as I do , I'm curious if plugging in the signal tubes one by one, starting with the output tubes, would reveal any that are drawing abnormal amounts of heater current (heater voltage suddenly drops).

    It's seeming like you've got things wired up correctly, but the secondary voltages just all droop a bunch with tubes in place, even with healthy wall voltage. Does the PT get hot to the touch after playing a while? If not, the amp is probably fine, and just has idiopathically low voltages.

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    Last edited by ThermionicScott; 01-06-2016 at 07:35 PM.

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Oh, another dumb question -- red/blue bias tap wire is taped off and NOT grounded or touching anything else, right? It must sound condescending to ask things like this, but I'm trying to eliminate whatever I can think of.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    Not condescending at all. I am a first time builder asking for help. Red/Blue is definitely taped off and not touching anything else.
    Measuring filaments one to the other instead of to ground gave me 6.77. So, as you said, basically 3.4x2.
    The secondaries without signal tubes measured 703V. Fully loaded, the secondaries measure 617V, and the heater voltage measures 5.78 at the lamp. It was a nearly equal 2.9 at each tube pin to ground. I do not believe the transformer is getting hot to the touch, but I suppose I haven't actually touched it.

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  29. #29
    Don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    Just for the heck of it, I'd disconnect the lamp socket and see if it has any effect on the heater voltage.

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilliamsaudio View Post
    Not condescending at all. I am a first time builder asking for help. Red/Blue is definitely taped off and not touching anything else.
    Measuring filaments one to the other instead of to ground gave me 6.77. So, as you said, basically 3.4x2.
    The secondaries without signal tubes measured 703V. Fully loaded, the secondaries measure 617V, and the heater voltage measures 5.78 at the lamp. It was a nearly equal 2.9 at each tube pin to ground. I do not believe the transformer is getting hot to the touch, but I suppose I haven't actually touched it.
    Okay, it's behaving like one would expect when unloaded: all of the voltages drift up, and I imagine your rectifier heater voltage also drifts above the nominal 5V when one isn't plugged in, but I'm not worried about it in particular.

    In addition to g1's idea, you might try double-checking your soldering and grounding for the power cable and fuseholder. If you haven't soldered the three gray-themed wires together that are shown connected with a wire nut, that would be worth doing. If there is resistance on the primary wiring, that could explain an abnormal voltage droop on the secondaries under load.

    P.S. After everything else has been eliminated, there is the possibility that the transformer itself is underspec'd for the job, but I do not want to besmirch anybody prematurely.

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    Last edited by ThermionicScott; 01-08-2016 at 04:37 AM.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    Wow, I'm really sorry guys. Really sorry. There was a fundamental flaw that I overlooked in all my testing. A dim-bulb tester with a 200 Watt bulb. My heater voltage is actually 6.6, not 5.78. Now my B+ measures 433. That's quite high I think. I don't mind feeling a little dumb, but I'm sorry I gave you all incorrect data.

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    Senior Member ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Aha! The dim-bulb tester was connected the whole time?

    That's a relief -- I was completely out of ideas. With a 5Y3 rectifier, your B+ should come back down to normal. How is the sound now?

    Enjoy that amp!

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    It's still really clean I think. It is 11pm and I live in an apartment, so I didn't really crank it yet. Would the lower B+ from a 5Y3 give me more gain? The cheap Jenson MOD speaker this kit came with is supposed to be really efficient. Perhaps installing my new Weber 12a125a will allow me to crank it higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilliamsaudio View Post
    It's still really clean I think.
    Your DC voltages look OK. I'd be looking for a wiring fault in the signal path. A 5E3 because of its funky back to front vol pot wiring should start to break up at about 3 on its vol pot (with the guitar vol set to 10). It should be really loud in an apartment by then. It can't do distortion at low volume. Try it with the 300mV test tone. It should be clean at low (very low) vol pot setting and really dirty at full vol (12?)

    EDIT: The volume controls are interactive, for the test set the unused vol to 0 so it doesn't attenuate the signal.

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    Last edited by Dave H; 01-08-2016 at 11:12 AM.

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    Member dwilliamsaudio's Avatar
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    This test might have been particularly telling. Although, I have no idea how to fix it. I ran a 1khz sine wave through at 300mV as you suggested. The other channel at 0. I don't have an oscilloscope, but I have to say, it was completely clean all the way up to 12. It was also unbearably loud starting at 3. But yes, I did take it up to 12. It did stop getting louder at about 5, which I think is normal.

    I also want to point out, as you may have noticed, this kit does come with a negative feedback option that you apply by using a jumper. I have tried it both ways and I do not have it in the wrong position. I also checked for unintentional continuity between the jumper pins and that is fine as well.

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    Last edited by dwilliamsaudio; 01-08-2016 at 04:53 PM.

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