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Thread: Earvana nut > 1st fret?

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    Earvana nut > 1st fret?

    Just had a refret job done, and my strat with Earvana that used to be spot-on perfect intonation around 1st few frets, now is out. I dont expect the luthier to do this micro-adjustment tbh.

    Its a stepped affair, jutting out into the G and B strings.

    I cant seem to find any info on setting its distance to 1st fret, by way of adjustment of the 3 screws.

    Any help appreciated. Thx SC.

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    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    Wouldn't you just tighten or loosen the 3 screws to move the nut to where it sounds right? Wouldn't a refret include setting up, or at least checking, the intonation?

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Here's a pretty good vid on the Earvana nut installation.
    Per video, looks like the nut set up, & string slots should have been done by your Luthier that installed it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5kgLwukRE

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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    Wouldn't you just tighten or loosen the 3 screws to move the nut to where it sounds right? Wouldn't a refret include setting up, or at least checking, the intonation?
    Well Ive been trying this for ages, but not getting satisfied results/ I cant be sure Im meant to be guestimating it by ear, (and by which fret specifically?)- so I posted the thread assuming there is a specific way. There must be instructions of some sort. Nothing on the site tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Here's a pretty good vid on the Earvana nut installation.
    Per video, looks like the nut set up, & string slots should have been done by your Luthier that installed it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C5kgLwukRE
    I went thru this vid. Its about fitting the nut in (and a solid one-piece affair afaict not a top section that is adjustable) filing slots etc (which is all done for me) rather than adjusting it- which it doesnt mention.

    The nut was in place when I gave it to the luthier, so no string slotting or fitting the nut or any nut work needed to be done. Sayong this the top section he -did- twiddle as I noticed it poss different position, but the intonation was far from perfect. I dont expect him to do this to perfection as he did the job for me 1/2 price (but I wonder if it needed twiddling at all if before it was spot-on perfect: I assume the new fret height meant it needed twiddling.. I dont know).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    Just had a refret job done, and my strat with Earvana that used to be spot-on perfect intonation around 1st few frets, now is out. I dont expect the luthier to do this micro-adjustment tbh.

    Its a stepped affair, jutting out into the G and B strings.

    I cant seem to find any info on setting its distance to 1st fret, by way of adjustment of the 3 screws.

    Any help appreciated. Thx SC.
    Since you had the refret, it now had bad intonation? If this is the case, it's probably because the new frets are higher or lower than the old ones, so when playing first position chords, it's not intonated well because the string height in the nut relative to the fret height has changed, so the intonation has gone bad.

    The reason these first position chords are not iontonated well is because when you fret close to the nut, it pulls the string down at a sharper angle relative to the nut than when you fret farther away from the nut. This pulls the note sharp because of this sharper angle. Since you had a refret, chances are that the frets are a different height, resulting in different intonation. It would seem that tedmich's suggestion of sliding the nut one way or another will help at least some. If it doesn't, then you will either have to put up with it or have the nut slot depths changed so it will be right. I also agree with tedmich and would think the intonation would be part of the refret if the luthier is a competent one. He should be aware intonation should be part of the refret and include a setup.

    Also, make sure the standard intonation process every guitar should have is set first by adjusting the bridge saddles. Use a tuner for this for sure. Also sight in the neck to see if a truss rod adjustment is necessary. It could have changed in the refret process.

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    Hi DRH- comprehensive answer there. thanks.

    I too agree that the fret H difference is one reason, as there is a noticeable difference in these new (IMO) 'medium/ average/ normal' (as what I asked for) frets' height. Just more pronounced evenly all the way tip to toe. Silky smooth to run up n down, and beautifully done with edges as good as my gibson's for eg.

    I understand that pressing down hard on the strings will bend them befre frets making the note's pitch change: but even lightly pressed say a D chord the top E and B strings' finger positions' notes are flat/ badly so, as when I rcvd the neck back with the nut shifted fractionally by the luthier.

    I must give him his dues: these nuts must be an utter nightmare for him to find on a neck, to have to deal with resetting after the refret. Also is he a competent luthier.. well, if he's Mark Knopfler's luthier/ refretter as he is, then prob just up to par for me..!

    I have had a few emails from luthier himself, seemingly slightly anxiously and very helpfully trying his best to offer to send whole gtr up foc (cant send my strat/ besides another 25 courier w'out insurance, no) and/ or pointing me to some earbana discussions on www. But I said look dont fret (clever: pun intended) if it can only be a Q of shifting the thing a few mm's I can do it:- but surely there's an optimum fig to set for eg the two E strings at relative to the crown of the 1st fret.

    Or, maybe its a Q of raising the nut top section-? Ive just thought there might be a direct contact to Earvana Co. themselves to help maybe.

    Neck truss rod is set ideal (a tiny tweak was all it needed once strings on).

    Im not sure you see how Im meant to make sure of intonation process firstly by adjustment of bridge saddles.. if the scale length isnt yet set spot-on due to the nut not being precisely set: I would've thought this is fundamental to get correct -before- anyhting else is set, as all other (saddle adjusting / scale length) will be reliant and relative to the nut position.

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    I read for a 25.5" scale length, a standard (not Earvana) nut > 1st fret should be 36.3mm.

    Why then do I measure 36.6mm on my CIJ tele? and also my takamine? (36.6 spot-on, from nut edge to fret crown/ centre/ midpoint).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post

    Im not sure you see how Im meant to make sure of intonation process firstly by adjustment of bridge saddles.. if the scale length isnt yet set spot-on due to the nut not being precisely set: I would've thought this is fundamental to get correct -before- anyhting else is set, as all other (saddle adjusting / scale length) will be reliant and relative to the nut position.
    The intonation process is as follows: First plug into a tuner. Then play the open string harmonic at the 12th fret(octave) and compare the reading on the tuner with the fretted note of that 12th fret. The pitch should be the same +/- a cent. If the fretted note is sharp, lengthen the scale by moving the saddle back until the harmonic and fretted notes match. If it is flat, the saddle should be moved forward. Usually, it won't take much movement to accomplish this. Go in small increments and try again until it matches. When finished, retune all strings with the tuner and repeat the process to ensure all strings are still matched according to the above process. I would do this with the Earvana in the central position as this will allow you forward or backward adjustment of that nut.

    To answer your next Q, The 25.5" scale a standard the same as an 8 ohm speaker is a standard. It is many other impedances at different frequencies. I suppose also it's to differentiate between 24.75" for Gibsons. The exact scale is determined by the intonation process. Usually, it won't take much movement of the saddle to get it right, so I doubt if measuring with some sort of ruler is the way to go anyway.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I'm probably going to take a beating for this, but...

    I'm in total disagreement with compensated nut systems. When you consider that the entire fingerboard is designed with tuned intervals, my logic reasons that changing only the first interval will invariably render it incorrect. How is it even possible for that first interval to play in tune if it doesn't follow the same gradient as all those after it. Compensating at the saddle is even a compromise, but the best one we have. Compensating at the saddle allows for averaging the amount of "out of tune-ness" across the strings fretted length. Ideally, compensation would be done at each individual fret. This is, of course, impractical for a number of construction and operational reasons. My point though is that compensating at the nut, by my limited reasoning, seems like the worst possible place. I'm sure there are some good sounding explanations by those that make and market nut compensation devices for why it works, but I wouldn't be surprised if only certain reasons are addressed while other considerations are ignored. It's my opinion that these systems, while they look cool and high tech, are the result of a limited view of the whole system, can't work and are only being sold because people buy them. In the whole picture it doesn't make sense to me. And I doubt you will ever be able to tune the guitar satisfactorily before the compensated nut system is removed and replaced with a normal, straight nut in it's proper location relative to the first fret.

    I'm going to pop some corn.

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    I am aware of three different approaches to improving intonation: Earvana, Feiten, and multiple scale (fan-frets).

    I am in no position to compare them, but I'd be interested on folks' experience with them or any discussion on the pros and cons of these various approaches.

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    I always have problems tuning the 3rd string, unwound G. My 'nut compensation' routine is to ensure that the string is in tune at the second fret A so that the "rock" chords all sound in tune. The open G is a tiny bit flat, but not so much as to be noticeable. I think I'm really splitting the difference there. The guitar has a fixed bridge, so once the bridge is intonated it's a matter of majority rule for the individual strings!

    I'm thinking to intonate the bridge on a guitar with a compensated nut (see post #9) you'd want to pick a fret (3rd? 5th?) and capo there to get the bridge set, then worry about the nut after that's done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRH1958 View Post
    ...it's probably because the new frets are higher or lower than the old ones, so when playing first position chords, it's not intonated well because the string height in the nut relative to the fret height has changed, so the intonation has gone bad.
    I would think it is the above^^ As the intonation is flat at the first few frets I'd try moving the nut back (to make the string longer). If that doesn't fix it the action at the first few frets will have to be adjusted by raising or lowering the nut. SC are the new frets higher or lower than the originals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    And I doubt you will ever be able to tune the guitar satisfactorily before the compensated nut system is removed and replaced with a normal, straight nut in it's proper location relative to the first fret.
    Nah. What he needs is a zero fret.

    I'm going to pop some corn.
    Me too. This should be fun.

    -rb

    PS- Possibly useful suggestion (just guessing)
    If your fretted notes are flat, that suggests to me that your frets are now higher than they were before, so the fretted strings are now being stretched less than before. Moving the nut closer to the first fret should stretch the fretted strings more, raising the pitch of the fretted notes. (Raising the nut would also stretch the strings more, but I don't think you'd want to do that unless the strings are buzzing on the 1st fret). The limit for adjustment would be that you don't want to get any closer to the first fret than where one would place a zero fret (according to that square-root-of-twelve formula, whatever it is). If you get any closer than that position, all fretted notes will be sharp. I think.

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    Last edited by rjb; 01-25-2016 at 06:38 PM.

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    When I intonate my guitars, I generally tune all strings to pitch, then for low E I'll check 3rd fret against G string, 5th against A, 7th against B, 10th against D, etc. I actually don't sweat the open string, I rarely play in open position. For the low E I prioritize the 3rd to 7th fret range, high e, the 10th to 15th fret range. I usually check tuning at the 5th fret playing octaves, 4ths and 5ths. There can be a bit of tail chasing but when it works right it's great. I figure any sort of inaccuracies from fretting are accounted for this way. Sometimes open position chords sound bad and I have to change things but the middle of the neck sounds great.

    I developed this system after reading that the Buzz Feiten system relocates the nut but leaves the frets in the same place. I reasoned that if I didn't reference the open string I could achieve the same effect over the rest of the neck.

    I have read that harmonics vibrate slightly sharp of the expected pitch, relative to the fundamental and this is the reason for the tempered tuning of pianos. I imagine that with an open string the pitch is the result of the tension vs the mass of the string but at the higher harmonics the string's resistance to bending is more of a factor.

    I believe guitarists should be do their own intonation. I'm gonna grab the strings differently than you and that will affect intonation. As far as fixing the Earvana intonation, I would get the fretted string intonated and the move the nut to get the open strings in tune. I would probably try to get the E and G strings intonated and see where the others were, I imagine that the E and G strings are the most sensitive because they have the least stretch. You'll probably find 2 strings that will determine the the whole thing the best.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Here's a site that gives string gap measurements for guitar setup.
    This gives a good starting point.
    Key measurements in electric guitar setup.
    YMMV,
    T
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    Guitar tuning has always been an approximation for the following reasons. I have to revise my math procedure below. Sorry!

    1. The frets are placed at the 12 root of 2 spacing interval. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_root_of_two. Take the length of the open string and divide it by 1.059463 to get the distance from the bridge to the first fret. Subtract this number from the string length to get the distance form the nut to the first fret. 25.5/ 1.059463 equals 24.0688. Now, divide the remaining string length from the first fret to the bridge and divide this slightly shorter distance by 1.059463 to get the spacing from the second fret to the bridge (a little shorter distance between frets as you go up the neck). Do this twelve times and when you get to the 12th fret you should be at exactly one half the string length and be at twice the frequency of the open string, thus the origin of the 12th root of two. The fret spacing follows this mathematical spacing but on guitars there is more to consider to stay in tune.

    2. Strings have two lengths, (1) the physical length and the (2) speaking length. The size and flexibility (stiffness) of the string, when it rests on the nut, bridge or fret starts to vibrate slightly forward of the contact point so its speaking length is slightly shorter than its physical length. This is why you see bridges offsets with the B or G string being longer as it is typically thicker and stiffer than the high E string and needs a little longer physical length so its speaking length is more in tune.

    3. The height of the string above the frets (action) and neck relief (neck bend adjusted by the truss rod tension) cause the strings to slightly go sharp when pressed down to the fret. This stretch is variable as each guitar is set up differently, uses different string gauges and reflects user set up preferences and playing styles (soft picking versus hard strumming).

    In order to minimize these effects the bridge of most guitars is slanted to make the bass strings longer because their speaking length needs to be lengthened slightly to be in tune. Guitar tuning has always been a compromise between ease of playing, string gauge used, playing style and comfort to the ear.

    In my experience, using 25.5 inch string length scales (Fender, typically) I like to use .011" high E string sets. On my shorter scale 24.75 scale length guitars (Gibson typically) I like to use .012 string sets. Shorter scale lengths require a little thicker string diameter to maintain a similar feel.

    Most guitars come from the factory requiring some fine tuning of the nut height. This adjustment should only be done using your favored string gauge. Here is how I do it.

    1. Select and install the string gauge you like.
    2. Tune to pitch. Play a barred F chord and note the feeling.
    3. Straighten the neck using the truss rod adjustment (no bow).
    4. Press the string down at the 3rd fret and the string will rest on the 2nd fret. Look at the space between the bottom of the string and the 1st fret.
    5. Lift the string out of the nut slot still in tune (do not change string tension).
    6. File nut a very little wider than the string diameter to prevent binding. File a little and check a lot to not over file the nut slot too deep.
    7. Stop filing when the string is about the thickness of a piece of paper above the 1st fret.
    8. Add relief to the neck and the distance from the string to the first fret will increase slightly.
    9. Do this to all the strings keeping the guitar in tune as you fine tune your guitar.
    10. Enjoy your new setup. Play a barred F chord to see how much easier it is to play then before.

    I hope this helps.

    Joseph J. Rogowski

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    Last edited by bbsailor; 01-26-2016 at 05:29 AM. Reason: OOPS: I revised the math to be accurate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I'm probably going to take a beating for this, but...

    I'm in total disagreement with compensated nut systems. When you consider that the entire fingerboard is designed with tuned intervals, my logic reasons that changing only the first interval will invariably render it incorrect. How is it even possible for that first interval to play in tune if it doesn't follow the same gradient as all those after it. Compensating at the saddle is even a compromise, but the best one we have. Compensating at the saddle allows for averaging the amount of "out of tune-ness" across the strings fretted length. Ideally, compensation would be done at each individual fret. This is, of course, impractical for a number of construction and operational reasons. My point though is that compensating at the nut, by my limited reasoning, seems like the worst possible place. I'm sure there are some good sounding explanations by those that make and market nut compensation devices for why it works, but I wouldn't be surprised if only certain reasons are addressed while other considerations are ignored. It's my opinion that these systems, while they look cool and high tech, are the result of a limited view of the whole system, can't work and are only being sold because people buy them. In the whole picture it doesn't make sense to me. And I doubt you will ever be able to tune the guitar satisfactorily before the compensated nut system is removed and replaced with a normal, straight nut in it's proper location relative to the first fret.

    I'm going to pop some corn.
    Your absolutley right.. but I think your thinking too much albeit completely rationally. If you actually play one, its actually a remarkably good system- and only seems to affect the first position, which often is the cause of slight intonation problems. Mine before was so sweetly in tune anywhere.. now after the refret its a struggle. Sheesh hey-ho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Here's a site that gives string gap measurements for guitar setup.
    This gives a good starting point.
    Key measurements in electric guitar setup.
    YMMV,
    T
    **No popcorn, but I have Peanuts!
    Useful and clear page for ref.. bookmarked/ but not for the issue in Q here tho, it doesnt have anything on nut > 1st fret distance, or anything on a compensated nuts.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    If it was great before, why the refret?
    The old Cliche comes to mind!
    "If it Aint Broke, Why Fix it" ?
    Just Saying!
    I would take it back to the Refretter, whatever he charged!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRH1958 View Post
    The intonation process is as follows: First plug into a tuner. Then play the open string harmonic at the 12th fret(octave) and compare the reading on the tuner with the fretted note of that 12th fret. The pitch should be the same +/- a cent. If the fretted note is sharp, lengthen the scale by moving the saddle back until the harmonic and fretted notes match. If it is flat, the saddle should be moved forward. Usually, it won't take much movement to accomplish this. Go in small increments and try again until it matches. When finished, retune all strings with the tuner and repeat the process to ensure all strings are still matched according to the above process. I would do this with the Earvana in the central position as this will allow you forward or backward adjustment of that nut.

    To answer your next Q, The 25.5" scale a standard the same as an 8 ohm speaker is a standard. It is many other impedances at different frequencies. I suppose also it's to differentiate between 24.75" for Gibsons. The exact scale is determined by the intonation process. Usually, it won't take much movement of the saddle to get it right, so I doubt if measuring with some sort of ruler is the way to go anyway.
    Understood.. but if I set the 12th strings and adjust at the saddles the get the harmonic matched.. then I have to shift the nut a bit, the whole thing will be out.

    Hence my reasoning that beofre anything related to intonating a gtr, surely the 1st and fundamental thing (apart from having a fretted board and 6 strings over an adjustable bridge) is to know that the nut is set in correct postion relative to the 1st fret.. or a heck of alot of time would be wasted of needs all to be redone. Fine for a std nut: its simply 36.3mm (apparantly- tho my other two 25.5" gtrs are both 36.6mm?!). But each of my nut positions are not standard 36.3mm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Nah. What he needs is a zero fret.


    Me too. This should be fun.

    -rb

    PS- Possibly useful suggestion (just guessing)
    If your fretted notes are flat, that suggests to me that your frets are now higher than they were before, so the fretted strings are now being stretched less than before. Moving the nut closer to the first fret should stretch the fretted strings more, raising the pitch of the fretted notes. (Raising the nut would also stretch the strings more, but I don't think you'd want to do that unless the strings are buzzing on the 1st fret). The limit for adjustment would be that you don't want to get any closer to the first fret than where one would place a zero fret (according to that square-root-of-twelve formula, whatever it is). If you get any closer than that position, all fretted notes will be sharp. I think.
    Yes I understand and agree- actually I did shift the nut fwd on the top side intuitively to try and sharpen those flat notes. It did (byut I got in a mess undoing all 3 tiny screws and dont know where im at now- thought there must be a reference A to B measurement I need to proceed or Im farting in the wind).

    So does that mean there isn't neccessarily a designated set firm figure for a nut > 1st fret, as frets will invariably be of different heights-?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    I always have problems tuning the 3rd string, unwound G. My 'nut compensation' routine is to ensure that the string is in tune at the second fret A so that the "rock" chords all sound in tune. The open G is a tiny bit flat, but not so much as to be noticeable. I think I'm really splitting the difference there. The guitar has a fixed bridge, so once the bridge is intonated it's a matter of majority rule for the individual strings!
    But that is exactly what these Earvana nuts solve. The G string is set into the 1st position by a few mm's compared to the E's for eg. Your rockON chords -and- your open G will all be in tune. Dont think too much as to how/ 'b b but why'.. it just does I assure you.

    Presuming you have the damn thing set correct to 1st fret that is!

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    I would think it is the above^^ As the intonation is flat at the first few frets I'd try moving the nut back (to make the string longer). If that doesn't fix it the action at the first few frets will have to be adjusted by raising or lowering the nut. SC are the new frets higher or lower than the originals?
    Yes indeed the new frets are higher than orig's (I did mention this in #7, but maybe not clear enough) and thought straight off it was the reason why the D chord now is flat on the top strings. But the nut can only be compmesated fwd / back.. not up or down. And I must be sure it needs a shim added before I venture down this route.

    But I still need at least one definitive figure, like the 36.3mm for a std gtr, before I do anything.. or Im farting in my soup.

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  25. #25
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    My strat measures 1.429" from behind the nut to the middle of the 1st fret.
    It has no intonation issues checked with a electronic tuner.
    All fret positions are in reasonable tune, with a standard nut.
    The bridge saddles measure 25-5/8" on the big E, and 25-7/16" on the little E.
    Measured from the back of the nut. Strings are Slinky 10s.
    T

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    I did shift the nut fwd on the top side intuitively to try and sharpen those flat notes. It did
    If 'fwd' is towards the bridge it should make the first fretted note play flat not sharp because the distance from nut to first fret is reduced. If the action is high at the nut it could possibly go the other way I suppose but I'm not sure. Measure the first fret action by holding down the string between the second and third frets. There should only be a tiny gap between the bottom of the string and top of the first fret.

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  27. #27
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I am aware of three different approaches to improving intonation: Earvana, Feiten, and multiple scale (fan-frets).

    I am in no position to compare them, but I'd be interested on folks' experience with them or any discussion on the pros and cons of these various approaches.
    I think these issues are very real for musicians with good pitch and exacting engineer types (and combinations thereof!) but are largely irrelevant to most guitarists. To your typical player its a solution in search of a problem but players who are gifted with excellent pitch are often happy to pay for anything which purports to correct the inherent inaccuracy of traditional guitar designs.

    The phrase "close enough for Rock'n Roll" comes to mind...

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  28. #28
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    The phrase "close enough for Rock'n Roll" comes to mind...
    More Gain & more Volume also comes to mind.
    That's why on the 8th day God Made the JCM800 100 Watt Marshall.

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

  29. #29
    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    That's why on the 8th day God Made the JCM800 100 Watt Marshall.
    That's the problem with this younger generation. I was thinking "Bridgette Bardot".

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    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
    If the thing works, stop fixing it. - Enzo
    We need more chaos in music, in art... I'm here to make it. - Justin Thomas
    MANY things in human experience can be easily differentiated, yet *impossible* to express as a measurement. - Juan Fahey


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    Understood.. but if I set the 12th strings and adjust at the saddles the get the harmonic matched.. then I have to shift the nut a bit, the whole thing will be out.
    But if you first adjust your bridge by capoing at the 3rd fret and checking fretted notes vs harmonics at the 15th fret, you eliminate the nut from the equation and your bridge should be spot-on.
    More or less. Theoretically. I think.
    OK, I'm obviously guessing.
    I'm outta here.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    That's the problem with this younger generation. I was thinking "Bridgette Bardot".
    Younger than what.
    I've been retired 6 years. lol
    Instead of Bridgette, lets go with Raquel!
    I had a picture of her in a bikini in my Army foot locker in 1967!
    T

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    If 'fwd' is towards the bridge it should make the first fretted note play flat not sharp because the distance from nut to first fret is reduced. If the action is high at the nut it could possibly go the other way I suppose but I'm not sure. Measure the first fret action by holding down the string between the second and third frets. There should only be a tiny gap between the bottom of the string and top of the first fret.
    Well then Im a dutchman & its more amiss than I thought then. Its damned difficult to know exactly if Im retuning all the time, cos X isnt tuned to Y, then I tweak it a tad here n there.. & I convince myself its better when perhaps its not.

    This is why I simply need: the distance from the E > 1st fret.. and from top E > 1st fret. Thats all I need. But I cant find it, no reply from Earvana themselves. There's no point doing all the harmonics intonation etc unless I know these two things. (Or any one of the stepped positions' > to 1st fret distance) or Im wasting a heck of alot of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    But if you first adjust your bridge by capoing at the 3rd fret and checking fretted notes vs harmonics at the 15th fret, you eliminate the nut from the equation and your bridge should be spot-on.
    More or less. Theoretically. I think.
    OK, I'm obviously guessing.
    I'm outta here.
    But if the nut is acock.. then once Ive done this ^ then I cant expect the nut if its not set right yet (its just full at back while I wait for the distance > 1st fret info) to just be magically perfect when I take capo off. It will jsut all be out.

    Am I missing something here? I cant for the life of me see any point doing intonation unless the nut is set precisely relative to 1st fret. Is that right, or not?

    cocking thing. Now Im considering taking it out!! (but thats a whole 50 re-nut job I have not accounted for/ and I liked the stepped nut alot before- & there seems no reason I cant use it -IF- I have the simple knowledge to set it. It takes 2 mins. I never expected this complication and having to reset it at all).

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  34. #34
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    Caveat: I do not have "Golden Ears" and probably not Ag or Pb either! Eric Johnson could reportedly hear the difference between brass or steel screws in the back of his OD pedal and Holdsworth often eschews strumming chords because he wants the notes to all begin at the same time, so he likes plucking them simultaneously. I'm a caveman by comparison.

    speaking of cavemen...

    segue

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Chief View Post
    Your absolutley right.. but I think your thinking too much albeit completely rationally. If you actually play one, its actually a remarkably good system- and only seems to affect the first position, which often is the cause of slight intonation problems. Mine before was so sweetly in tune anywhere.. now after the refret its a struggle. Sheesh hey-ho.
    So I think since your guitar was sweetly in tune before the refret and you said the frets are higher in post #7 and re-affirm in post #24, then the refret job is the problem and now the guitar is different than before. It probably won't be right from now on. And since Gibsons have the headstock pitched back and Fender has the headstock parallel but lower, the break angle from the nut to the tuners are different, so just one distance from the nut to the first fret is different for different designs because of the different break angles. So Earvana probably can't give you an exact distance from the nut to the first fret. And since the tuners closest to the nut will cause the string to have a sharper break angle and therefore more tension than those further back, the tension applied by fretting at the first fret will have a different effect for the close tuners than the back tuners. So there can't be just one single distance that you want between the nut and first fret that will satisfy all these different tensions because of the different break angles of the strings.

    EDIT: This is in response to your statement in post #33.
    SECOND EDIT: Did I use the word Different too many times?

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    Last edited by DRH1958; 01-26-2016 at 01:11 AM.
    Turn it up so that everything is louder than everything else.

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