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EL34 in a Champ?

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  • EL34 in a Champ?

    I have a friends sf Champ here (circa 1979). This thing won't get much above a loud speaking voice before it starts clipping and the tone is quite thin. The original "Fender" 6v6 is tired and the stock ceramic "Fender" speaker is clearly a turd. My guy isn't concerned with keeping the amp stock as it's not currently a real collectible model and he'd like to get as much clean volume as possible and improve the tonality. He doesn't want to spend too much on this either.

    My plan is to replace the stock speaker with a very efficient 10" (It'll fit, I've done it). I'll be revoicing the amp to eliminate useless low end that the small cabinet can't reproduce anyway and I'll bump the low mids. The stock tone stack is totally inappropriate for this amp.

    These amps typically have 420V or more on the power tube. Since we're after a cleaner amp I'll use a big bottle that won't mind so much rather than reduce voltage for a 6v6.

    I have plenty of tubes, but all matched pairs except for one el34 whose spouse died some years ago. I'd like to use it rather than break up another couple or buying a new tube. My obvious concern is filament current. The Vibro Champ used the same PT with another 12ax7 in the circuit. I know people have run 6l6's in Vibro Champs. That would be .75A more filament current than the standard Champ. Putting the el34 in this standard Champ will draw about 1A more current. Or, another .25A more than a Vibro with a 6l6 tube. My plan is to just install the tube, check filament voltage and burn it for awhile to see if the PT gets too hot. I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever done this and can confirm if it works or not.

    Of course I'll be rewiring the socket and rebias for the el34.

    There's no hum, but I'm going to rebuild the power supply and take other hum reduction measures anyway. I'll be adding a pi filter ahead of the rectifier so that I can add a 47uf cap to the plate supply (22uf after the rectifier 100r then 47uf), I'll rewire the filaments with a false CT referenced to the power tube cathode bias and I'll rewire some grounding to a more ideal scheme.

    Should be a neat little amp.
    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

  • #2
    Best return on investment will be the "very eficient 10" ; and maybe a little tweaking,don't waste effort and money to get, what? 1 extra Watt?

    The PS, specially the PT won't supply more, and actually less since you will tax it with increased filament load, not forgetting that the tiny OT works against you.

    And load impedance will stay the same, so you won't benefit either.

    Being Class A you'd need an important increase in idle current if you want any power increase.

    And so on.

    Of course, the deal killer is:
    He doesn't want to spend too much on this either.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    • #3
      I've tried 6L6 in a Champ, works great, lasts longer than 6V6 but not much of a power boost. Of course if you go EL34, you'll be wiring pin 1 to ground but you knew that. I briefly tried EL34 and it did no better than 6L6. You'll be getting a lot more bang for the buck with an efficient 10" speaker. And I approve the power supply pre-filter to knock hum down, no question of that. Still won't get loud, but it will be louder than stock. For some folks I put a mid control in the #2 input jack.

      Juan reminded me ^^^ that OT has a very limited bandwidth. Starts rolling off badly below 400 Hz. So there's another option: swap it out for a bigger better one to warm up the low end.

      Could up the power a pinch by using SS rectifier, a bucks worth of 1N4007 will do it, and leave change in your pocket.

      Champ away!
      This isn't the future I signed up for.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks gents.

        Juan. Perhaps I worded that poorly. The el34 filaments will DRAW more current. Provided the PT doesn't mind, this could actually be a benefit since modern wall voltages are higher than the primary spec. So it may end up "corrected". Hope springs eternal And I don't expect more watts for the plate voltage. I just figured I could use it with a big bottle it rather than reduce it for safer 6v6 operation.

        Leo. I'd love to put a better OT in the amp. I'd love to put a better PT in the amp. I'd love to replace the crappy, black paper circuit board, etc. etc. No $$$ on this one. The speaker with shipping alone is over budget at $92. I'll do the work for free, and I may still hear some whining about the parts cost.

        I don't expect much more actual power/watts. And I think a diode rectifier is out. I wouldn't want to tax the tiny OT with the full potential of a class A el34 at 460Vp anyhow (POP!). I'm just hoping for a lot more efficiency from the circuit and speaker. But if I do get another watt I don't think that's insignificant. After all, with this amp that would be 25% more power. You read everywhere that these are 6W amps. They're not.
        Last edited by Chuck H; 02-06-2016, 03:09 PM.
        "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

        "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

        "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
        You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
          I'd love to put a better PT in the amp. - - - - You read everywhere that these are 6W amps. They're not.
          No need to sweat a better PT, if I'm not mistook it's the same as a Princeton PT, plenty pokey for the purpose. If you go SS rectifier, you can put the 5V winding on the pilot lamp, and take its little load off the filament winding. Champ, 6 watts, maybe at 500 Hz, 50% distortion. With the wind at its back, driving over a cliff, what I said about my VW bugs with 85 mph top line on the speedo.

          I'm just lucky, got a Ceria single end PT leftover from a project (convert to Prinzetone), it's got to be 4x bigger than the Champ stock OT, plus has a choice of secondaries. Haven't tried it but I bet it's got a lot more oomph than the Champ OT.
          This isn't the future I signed up for.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey! I just thought of something...

            But here's something related to the thread instead I'm posting this because it may help others.

            There's no reason the incandescent pilot lamp couldn't be replaced with an LED. That should free up .16A. Do this and a Champ with an el34 would draw about .1A more filament current than a Vibro Champ with a 6l6 (which is known to be safe). I wouldn't expect any problems with that.

            EDIT: Ah! I was looking up the standard T47 bulb specs for this post when you posted Leo. Great minds think alike.
            "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

            "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

            "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
            You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

            Comment


            • #7
              It looks like both the Champ and PR from '64 used 125P1B PTs, with the PR likely drawing ~2.1A from the 6.3V heater winding.
              So assuming that the spec hadn't changed by 1979 (!) it should be fine to run an EL34 and single 12AX7.

              http://bmamps.com/Schematics/fender/...a764_schem.pdf
              http://bmamps.com/Schematics/fender/...1164_schem.pdf
              My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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              • #8
                How about selling it and buying the amp he wants. A Bugera V22 can be had for $250. I gig with one weekly. Champs are desirable bedroom amps for gear snobs and recording.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by olddawg View Post
                  How about selling it and buying the amp he wants. A Bugera V22 can be had for $250. I gig with one weekly. Champs are desirable bedroom amps for gear snobs and recording.
                  Which is likely what he'll use it for. That and small gigs. His band does "acoustic" sets at some local eateries. His workhorse for real gigs is a HR Deluxe. This isn't a snobby amp, yet. I suppose that could change. Market value for this year model, with moderate rust as this one has is $250 to $280 AFAICT. The ceramic speaker they used in these later models is really poor for both tone and efficiency. I'll return it to him with the amp. And suggest that he use it as wheel chock on steep driveways, a door stop or just throw it at the neighbors dog if it's crapping on his lawn.
                  "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                  "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                  "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                  You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                  Comment

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