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Thread: Workingman's 15 blew a fuse when turned on. (help me troubleshoot?)

  1. #36
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    1) Also would expect around +/-60V rails, but that would be straight to mains.
    With a 100W bulb in series, Iīd expect somewhat less but still reasonble, think +/- 40 to 50V DC

    Quite low +/-19V means amp is eating way over normal, it might either be oscillating or way overbiased.

    Check oscillation with a scope , in the example you mentioned Zobel network was open so amp was unstable, you might have the same but thatīs just one possibility among many.

    Discarding that, you can check for overbiasing by measuring voltage drop across power transistor emitter ballast resistors, also measure and post voltage across biasing transistor .

    2) if you have +/- 19V main rails, you have nowhere to pull +/-15V from , so those +/-2.9V do not surprise me at all.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    1) Also would expect around +/-60V rails, but that would be straight to mains.
    With a 100W bulb in series, Iīd expect somewhat less but still reasonble, think +/- 40 to 50V DC

    Quite low +/-19V means amp is eating way over normal, it might either be oscillating or way overbiased.

    Check oscillation with a scope , in the example you mentioned Zobel network was open so amp was unstable, you might have the same but thatīs just one possibility among many.

    Discarding that, you can check for overbiasing by measuring voltage drop across power transistor emitter ballast resistors, also measure and post voltage across biasing transistor .

    2) if you have +/- 19V main rails, you have nowhere to pull +/-15V from , so those +/-2.9V do not surprise me at all.
    I understood some of those words... but not enough to know what to do next. I don't know what oscillating or over-biased are in the context of amp circuitry, or a zobel network. I don't know what "power transistor emitter ballasts resistors are or a biasing transistor.

    Is there a book you'd recommend for me to learn some of this stuff? Also, any lines on a cheap oscilloscope?

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    It's been a long time since I checked all the diodes, resistors, and transistors. And to be honest, I didn't really know what I was doing for a lot of it. I'm thinking I might take the time to test each one and write the measurement on my schematic.

    I tested the DC volts at the sub. 11.8 VDC.

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    Last edited by Stratapastor; 11-28-2016 at 02:42 AM.

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    11.8 dcv

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  5. #40
    Stray Cap DrGonz78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    I understood some of those words... but not enough to know what to do next. I don't know what oscillating or over-biased are in the context of amp circuitry, or a zobel network. I don't know what "power transistor emitter ballasts resistors are or a biasing transistor.

    Is there a book you'd recommend for me to learn some of this stuff? Also, any lines on a cheap oscilloscope?
    Oscillation is something you will need observe with a scope. However, you had mentioned that the red clipping light stays on continuously without a signal applied and that can imply that the amp is self oscillating.
    Read about oscillation on this page and just take it all in with a grain of salt. Get the jest of it all. Do some google searches to find other sources of information explaining it.
    Amplifier Stability and Instability | Audio Undone

    Also watch this little video here on youtube to show you someone observing oscillations on an amplifier using a scope.


    (I will try to put this in lay man's terms, probably all that I am capable of explaining anyway)
    The main power transistors in your amp and all the transistors for that matter will be biased. This is similar to setting the idle in your car, but in the case of the amplifier it is "idle current" that we need to set. Setting the overall bias of the power amp circuit is done while the amp is idle and just sitting there powered on with no input signal injected through the circuit. If set too low you get cross over distortion (cold bias) and set to high (hot bias) then you get smoke. Main point about the bias of the power amp is that a hot bias will cause the components to draw high amounts of current which will dissipate as heat through the amp components. Too much heat and the transistors will fry. If you look at Q3 and Q4 on the schematic you will see B C and E listed on each of the legs of the transistor. This is Base, Collector and Emitter. The Base pin of the transistor is where the bias voltage sits on those components perhaps just a couple volts. This turns on the transistor so it is barely on and at idle. When audio signal runs through the amp it will increase and amplify the current pull as well as the output signal, similar to hitting the gas pedal in a car.

    When the amp has a large current pull it will drop the overall voltages of the power rails. One thought here is that your voltages on your are very low and this oscillation through the circuit is pulling a lot of current. So even with the light bulb limiter (which will limit voltages too) it appears that your voltages are really really low. So we asked you to measure across the emitter resistors for DC volts... Those are R29 & R42 on the power amp schematic. Really R29 is an Emitter resistor but this looks like a Quasi-Complementary output amp. Which don't get too hung up on all the terminology all at once and just try to follow the main thoughts. Q4 is a 2SC3264 and so is Q10 which are you main output transistors which are both NPN types. So you see Q4 has the Emitter leg connected to the R29("emitter" ballast resistor) but Q10 Collector leg leads to the R42 ("emitter" Ballast resistor). Many times you will see an amp have a true complimentary pair in those locations of the output transistors. Other versions may have NPN and PNP as pairs or many many other arrangements. So there is no simple way to explain all of it. It will take a long time to absorb and learning never ends. Main thing is measuring across the emitter ballast resistors will help us figure out if the bias is cranked up way too high. Honestly with 11vdc on the output we do need to find out if there are any shorted transistors in the amp or other bad components.

    The Zobel network is a resistor and capacitor going to ground right at the output before the speaker. There is R44 & C21 and I think R43 and C20 are there too as part of the Zobel network. Go research on google what that does in relation to the stability of an amplifier.

    A great book to browse is Teemuk's Solid State amp book:
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...39782543,d.cGw

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    [/QUOTE}\]

    The Zobel network is a resistor and capacitor going to ground right at the output before the speaker. There is R44 & C21 and I think R43 and C20 are there too as part of the Zobel network. Go research on google what that does in relation to the stability of an amplifier.

    [/QUOTE]

    You are right, that's a lot of info. I won't be able to decidate all the hours i'd like to understanding it this week but I'll continue to ask questions as they come to me. The book by Teemu is VERY appreciated. looking forward to going through it while i'm out of town.

    RE: the Zobel Network.
    If the Zobel Network is there to neutralize the effects of the driver's voice coil inductance wouldn't it cease to be an issue once the sub was removed? Or can it create it's own problems in the absence of a voice coil?

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  7. #42
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    This thread has gotten way out of hand. So, the amp was blowing fuses. With a light bulb limiter the amp will power on but is still drawing too much current.

    Unplug the speaker if it has a plug or use the speaker switch to turn off the speaker for now. Use your meter to see if there is any dc voltage at the speaker output.

    Does your meter have a diode test function? If it does, then use it to test the two output transistors and the bridge rectifier. Please post specific results here. You should not have any readings that are close to zero.

    Don't get distracted with extraneous information until you are certain that the basic tests are done and that the usual suspects are ruled out. The clipping light may only be turned on due to the power supply problem.

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    I should mention that I have a new multimeter that seems to be much more consistent in it's measurements.
    Both Q4 and Q10 showed B->C of .528 and only with the + on be and - on C. But the measurement for BE was .100 in with leads +to - or -to +.

    Should I desolder these and test off of the board?

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    with a lack of anything else to do at the moment I checked all of the diodes in circuit and, with the exception of D8 and D10 they all measured correctly. I'm assuming it's because D8 and D10 are both in parallel with other components.

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  10. #45
    Stray Cap DrGonz78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    I should mention that I have a new multimeter that seems to be much more consistent in it's measurements.
    Both Q4 and Q10 showed B->C of .528 and only with the + on be and - on C. But the measurement for BE was .100 in with leads +to - or -to +.

    Should I desolder these and test off of the board?
    At some point pulling the transistors (Q4 & Q10) off the board for testing may be beneficial. Also in cases where a component can't be accurately measured in circuit de-soldering one leg off the board will be all it takes to measure it correctly. Sorry for my long winded post last night, but hopefully a few bits of it helped. Just focus like Bill said on the problem at hand and get at the root of the problem. Also, to point out that there is 11.8vdc on the speaker output.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGonz78 View Post
    At some point pulling the transistors (Q4 & Q10) off the board for testing may be beneficial. Also in cases where a component can't be accurately measured in circuit de-soldering one leg off the board will be all it takes to measure it correctly. Sorry for my long winded post last night, but hopefully a few bits of it helped. Just focus like Bill said on the problem at hand and get at the root of the problem. Also, to point out that there is 11.8vdc on the speaker output.
    I pulled D10 and it tested correctly. Since Q4 and Q10 are the same transistor I assumed that they were both probably ok.

    could a bad cap cause this? I believe I read that it can cause oscillation.

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  12. #47
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    Please retest the two output transistors and post the E-C readings.

    Have you tested the rectifier bridge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    Since Q4 and Q10 are the same transistor I assumed that they were both probably ok.
    Never assume, measure

    I'd remove Q4, Q10 and the drivers Q3, Q9 and measure them out of circuit. B to E and B to C should measure like a diode, C to E should measure open circuit.

    With all four transistors removed power up the amp and measure the +HT, -HT rails And +15V, -15V rails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 52 Bill View Post
    Please retest the two output transistors and post the E-C readings.

    Have you tested the rectifier bridge?
    pulled and retested rectifier bridge, it's good. E-C readings were open 1 direction and .543 the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrGonz78 View Post
    At some point pulling the transistors (Q4 & Q10) off the board for testing may be beneficial. Also in cases where a component can't be accurately measured in circuit de-soldering one leg off the board will be all it takes to measure it correctly. Sorry for my long winded post last night, but hopefully a few bits of it helped. Just focus like Bill said on the problem at hand and get at the root of the problem. Also, to point out that there is 11.8vdc on the speaker output.
    what are your thoughts on pulling and testing the caps?...

    EDIT: never mind. I just discovered that my meter is about 6600 uf short of being able to measure my large caps....

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    Last edited by Stratapastor; 11-30-2016 at 07:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    what are your thoughts on pulling and testing the caps?...

    EDIT: never mind. I just discovered that my meter is about 6600 uf short of being able to measure my large caps....
    Test the two large filter caps with your ohm meter. All you need to know at this point is whether either one is shorted. You do not need to pull them or anything else until you find something that is suspect. Pulling things out of the board only increases the chances of damaging the board and the parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 52 Bill View Post
    Test the two large filter caps with your ohm meter. All you need to know at this point is whether either one is shorted. You do not need to pull them or anything else until you find something that is suspect. Pulling things out of the board only increases the chances of damaging the board and the parts.
    Thanks, neither is shorted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    Never assume, measure

    I'd remove Q4, Q10 and the drivers Q3, Q9 and measure them out of circuit. B to E and B to C should measure like a diode, C to E should measure open circuit.

    With all four transistors removed power up the amp and measure the +HT, -HT rails And +15V, -15V rails.
    With the 4 above removed.

    +/-HT = 62.8, =/-15 = +/-15

    all 4 test ok out of circuit.

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  19. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    With the 4 above removed.

    +/-HT = 62.8, =/-15 = +/-15

    all 4 test ok out of circuit.
    Have you tested Q5? If the voltages all come back with the outputs and drivers removed and all of those transistors test okay, then the bias circuit around Q5 is suspect.

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    UPDATE: I've pulled out Q4,10,3, and 9. With all 4 removed there is of course no hum and the clip light is off. All of them test ok. What's the next step that I should take?

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    So with the components removed, what voltage dc readings do you get at Q3 & Q9 Base, Collector & Emitter pads?

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    Grounding the neg lead to the chassis and using the pos prob on the pads I get the following
    Q3 B 34.4 C 63.7 E 0
    Q9 B - started at 18 and then went negative to 14... i'm confused. C -63.7 E 0

    I left the amp off for a while and found the same result but I didn't leave it on as long. Also, the R1 and R2 are quite warm.

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  23. #58
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Q3 base being that high (+ Vdc) is bad.
    A high on an NPN transistor turns it ON.
    Which (in this case) drives the Emitter high.

    Look at the output circuit.
    That high Emitter (with the transistor installed) will put a high on the outputs Q4.
    Which will put that Emitter high (Vdc on the speaker!)

    Working backwards, I think Q2 may be at fault (at least).
    Q2 is a PNP transistor.
    A high on the Base turns the transistor off.
    That's what the 2.7K resistor is doing.
    Turning the Base slightly On.
    The Collector then will be slightly On.
    Which it is not.

    R1 & R2 have nothing to do with the output circuit.
    They are for the preamp.
    5Watt resistors do get hot.

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    q2 seems to be letting current through both ways between the emitter and base.

    Also... somehow in all my testing this is the first time I've tested this cap... I'd have remembered because it was hard to get at and the only one like it on the board.


    EDIT: I'm dumb... pretty sure it was measuring across the resistor that's between the B and E... What now?

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    Last edited by Stratapastor; 12-03-2016 at 04:02 AM.

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    What now, what?

    Test the transistor.

    Do you have a 'diode check' function on your meter?

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    I do... it will take me a minute to get the base leg loose... hopefully less than 10 min.

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    Tested fine, not a fun place to solder

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    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    So where is the +voltage coming from.

    As far as I can see, that is the place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    So where is the +voltage coming from.

    As far as I can see, that is the place.
    Q1 and Q2 are part of the slow turn on mute circuit. Q2 starts out turned off and then as Q1 gets turned on, it turns on Q2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    Grounding the neg lead to the chassis and using the pos prob on the pads I get the following
    Q3 B 34.4 C 63.7 E 0
    Q9 B - started at 18 and then went negative to 14... i'm confused. C -63.7 E 0
    Measure the voltage between Q3 B and Q9 B. This is the bias voltage for the output stage. It should be less than 3V. From the above it looks like it could be 16V or more. This is bad as when the output transistors are replaced it will turn on both Q4 and Q10 shorting the +HV and -HV supplies together. I suspect Q5 is bad. Did you test it as Bill suggested in post #54?

    With the speaker disconnected and drivers removed there is no path for the base current of Q6 so it will turn off, turning Q7 and Q8 on pulling Q9 B negative (I think).

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    Last edited by Dave H; 12-03-2016 at 09:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    Measure the voltage between Q3 B and Q9 B. This is the bias voltage for the output stage. It should be less than 3V. From the above it looks like it could be 16V or more. This is bad as when the output transistors are replaced it will turn on both Q4 and Q10 shorting the +HV and -HV supplies together. I suspect Q5 is bad. Did you test it as Bill suggested in post #54?

    With the speaker disconnected and drivers removed there is no path for the base current of Q6 so it will turn off, turning Q7 and Q8 on pulling Q9 B negative (I think).
    Q5 is testing fine in circuit.

    Q3 b-Q9 b starts at 15v and then climbs to over 20... I stopped there but it was climbing at a steady pace.

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    Probably worth removing Q5 to test. Certain circuits can make an open junction appear 'good'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g1 View Post
    Probably worth removing Q5 to test. Certain circuits can make an open junction appear 'good'.
    no change with q5 removed. However, probably from movement while i've been taking the board on and off, the outside legs of q5 were broken off at the board. once I know what else I need to replace i"ll be ordering that new too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratapastor View Post
    no change with q5 removed. However, probably from movement while i've been taking the board on and off, the outside legs of q5 were broken off at the board. once I know what else I need to replace i"ll be ordering that new too.
    This is why i don't recommend removing parts or boards until you have a real reason to. There's just too many chances to do more damage than you fix.

    I will have to look at the schematic again, but you may be able to just jumper across the bias transistor to see if that was the entire cause of your problem. The power amp may power up correctly with the two halves tied together. It won't sound right, but it may just power up okay. Please wait until I or somebody else has a chance to look at the schematic and tells you that this will work.

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    it had been moved around quite a bit from my efforts to trouble shoot. it's really not anyones fault but mine. If I need it to trouble shoot further then I'll order a new one and let you know when it comes in.

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