Telecaster Bridge Pickup Baseplate - A New Look

[Mr McRuff]

Hello,

I was doing a random search of the net regarding the Telecaster baseplate and came across the thread "Tele bridge base plates...why?". It looks to be an old thread that was discussing if the bridge pickup baseplate was an after thought. Since I haven't received any feedback I figured I'd start a new discussion and see if there was still interest on the topic out there. I'm new to this, so I probably made some mistake in responding to the last thread.

The original thread got me thinking about a seldom used site, which could be used for research like this...the US Patent Office. I was able to obtain the patent number for his original guitar (Broadcaster) "combination bridge & pickup assemblies" [as it's referred to] dated, Oct. 30, 1951; it makes for interesting reading. It turns out I answered my own question too relating to the baseplate issue, but raised others.

As it appears, no additional plate is mentioned in the patent at all, only the bottom of the pickup (bobbin) also referred to as a 'baseplate' with the top of the bobbin being referred to as a 'headplate'. So the copper clad steel baseplate was a definite after thought otherwise it would have been mentioned in the text.

Also, the formed cover ['ashtray'] that the guitar would come to have in production is again lacking from the patent description. If it were to serve an actual purpose - i.e. shielding and was thought of originally, it would have been mentioned. Solid body electric guitars and their circuits were relatively new at the time, so anything that could be claimed would exclude other companies from capitalizing on his (Fender's) idea.

The only reference to a steel plate that was patented by C.L. Fender in relationship to pickups isn't until 1966...the Jaguar pickup!

In the original posting the writer thought that the plate came later into the design...and was apparently on to something. The file date of the patent was 1950 (it's pretty normal for the process to take a year or so prior to a grant). This would probably put the company in touch with a patent attorney to start things rolling around late 1949; putting things very near the conception phase.

I'm thinking that there may have been problem with the early bobbins and screw threads didn't original hold well in the material as suggested. Perhaps the need for this purpose yielded a shielding benefit. In the design world I'm sure different materials were tested for the plate, not just steel - it's that way with a lot of new products, not just guitars or pickups. It may have been found steel increased volume/output, but was lousy to solder to, hence the use of copper cladding.

Could the plate be done away with now a days with new cavity shielding techniques?

Could magnet formula go from AlNiCo 3 to AlNiCo 5 to compensate for volume loss?

Would these things (and possibly others) bring the guitar closer to Leo's original concept as spelled out in the patent?

I welcome responses and thoughts on this topic.

[Steve A.]

FWIW the Fender Champion lap steel (which came out in 1948) used the same basic pickup as the early Teles and Broadcasters. It did not have the metal baseplate as it used a completely different bridge. Here is a picture of the 1952 Champion pickup:



Here is a thread with a lot of information about the pickups:

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/fender-...-pickup.40716/

Steve Ahola

P.S. The metal baseplate definitely changes the sound of the pickup. Lindy Fralin sells metal plates that go on the bottom of strat pickups held by potting wax- on a bridge pickup you get a bit of the tele vibe...

[Mr McRuff]

Thanks for you response Steve. Hmm... Another case of Leo not following his original design. Patent number 2,455,575 (his original concept for the lap steel along with Clayton Kauffman) appears radically different then production models. The strings were supposed to pass through the coil with magnets on either side held in place by 'U'-shaped channels and then screwed together.

I'm aware that the Telecaster bridge pickup baseplate changes tone and depending on material, in different ways. But I don't think he though of it right off, maybe in the test stage. Could it be the magnets were AlNico 3 and not strong enough for the sound he envisioned, so he compensated with the plate? If he were coming up with his idea now with other materials available would he have been able to stick to his original thought and not provided a plate?

You are right though, by purpose or accident the pickup for the Telecaster was produced with a plate and it does change tone. This is the tone we first became familiar with and is now a staple sound.

I suppose my question is more a 'what if'. Suppose Leo was transported from the 1940s to present time; would he still do things the same way? He was all about manufacturing cost and production. Would he say...'What am I thinking? Eliminate that plate, save cost and use AlNiCo 5 magnets to compensate.' We'll never know the answer to that one, but it is interesting to think about.

I guess the other question becomes; if there were so many extra benefits derived from this plate, why would he suddenly stop using it on his next model the Stratocaster? (Which carries another oddity - all pickups are adjustable from the top without removing a pickguard. With all these designers around no one thought...'Hey two screws through the pickguard and you have easy adjustment of the neck pickup!' Instead you remove six screws, the guard, then adjust the pickup and reassemble. Not to mention it would have been an easier build on his end instead of mounting the pickup to the body and trying to fit the guard in place.

Glad to see there is some interest in this out there. Thanks for responding!

[big_teee]

On a tele the base plate does a few things.
I think the main thing, like Steve said, was a simple way to ground the bridge plate, and strings.
The base plate is right there where the pickup ground return is.
It also helps with a ground plane, which gives some shielding, and it helps tame the highs, if you want it to.
If you don't use the steel baseplate, then you need the forbon bottom with the tapped #6 screw holes.
T

[Mr McRuff]

Hey big_teee glad to see you joined in. I remember from the original post I read by Funkyk.....

I remember you having posted something by Bill Lawrence (someone I had the chance to meet and talk to and always offered help by phone...those days are gone). He mentioned the different alloys and how they would affect tone. Have you ever wonder why brass was not used in production? It seems it would have been easier to work with (cost?) The copper clad steel gives a boost, but I think brass (or straight copper) would be better for shielding.

btw Did you know the the bottom bobbin of the Tele pickup was not going to be the pentagonal shape with rounded corners, but a plain old rectangle with four rounded corners? I guess he figured he could 'cookie cut' more out of a sheet with a pentagon, since you could align them closer.

[Stratz]

btw Did you know the the bottom bobbin of the Tele pickup was not going to be the pentagonal shape with rounded corners, but a plain old rectangle with four rounded corners? I guess he figured he could 'cookie cut' more out of a sheet with a pentagon, since you could align them closer.

Did you know why Leo used butchers twine on the Champion/Tele bridge pickups?
I do.
My Father was very good friends with George Fullerton and he was also into pickup making in the 50's-60's on the side for steel guitars. George told my Father how the string wrap thing came to be and the reason is just what most people who know of Leo Fenders habits and quirks would think it is.

[Mr McRuff]

So your dad knew George Fullerton - wow early days. I take it you are from California. I interviewed at Fender back in the late 70s, but timing wasn't right. It was around the time they were changing owners and didn't really have their act together too well.

I thought the intent of the string (twine) was to help dampen microphonics...I could be wrong. I'm sure that if the pickup was properly wax potted you wouldn't need the twine at all.

Let me know what's up with the twine and any other insight into the early Broadcaster or parts would be great!

[Steve A.]

Did you know why Leo used butchers twine on the Champion/Tele bridge pickups?
I do.
My Father was very good friends with George Fullerton and he was also into pickup making in the 50's-60's on the side for steel guitars. George told my Father how the string wrap thing came to be and the reason is just what most people who know of Leo Fenders habits and quirks would think it is.

I know nothing of Leo Fender's habits except that he was very, er, frugal. I guess he wrapped the coils to protect the fine coil wire and used butchers twine because it was cheap and readily available... The only twine I'm familiar with is the very coarse jute variety that my father used to tie up bundles of old newspapers.

Steve A.

[Stratz]

I know nothing of Leo Fender's habits except that he was very, er, frugal.
Steve A.

Exactly Steve. Just like Mt Everest.... Because it was there. It just happened to be there and he needed something to protect the winding. I guess he liked the look because it stuck.

[Mr McRuff]

Well...call him what you want, we owe a lot to him if playing any of his instruments.

I would say your thinking regarding protecting the coil wire is valid. Considering the neck pickup, when added, came with an integral cover (although I have seen very early examples without cover). The cover over the bridge/pickup was removable, perhaps he considered the coil could be damaged if the player removed the cover for whatever reason (I know for me it was comfort and damping - I never could get used to that thing).

I think most manufactures of the time (and earlier) had covers. Especially coming out of WWII - materials were still very expensive and not easy to get, unless you were lucky and had a government contract. My dad owned a 1949 Ford Coupe and I can remember him saying it was the first new model introduced after the war. Even the tooling would remain unchanged until things started to get back to normal. So I would imagine fine magnet wire for guitar pickups would have been at a premium for a while; considering Fender was taking on his dream in 1945/46.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I know nothing of Leo Fender's habits except that he was very, er, frugal. I guess he wrapped the coils to protect the fine coil wire and used butchers twine because it was cheap and readily available.

That coil needs some protection, without a doubt. I've had a couple cases where a string snapped, whacked an unprotected coil usually in the bridge position, and that's the end of the pickup. A layer of tough jute or similar fiber would have been an appropriate solution in the 40's. Now we have cloth sticky-tape, some folks use it. The historical solution continues in use for Tele bridge pickups. Tradition, tradition...

[big_teee]

I like the bridge pickup with the steel baseplate.
I never did like the white cotton string.
It always looked cheap and cheezy looking to me.
I always use black cloth humbucker tape.
Never had anyone ask for the string.
If they do, I will refer them to Stratz.
T

[Lollar Jason]

"Another case of Leo not following his original design. Patent number 2,455,575 (his original concept for the lap steel along with Clayton Kauffman) appears radically different then production models. The strings were supposed to pass through the coil with magnets on either side held in place by 'U'-shaped channels and then screwed together."
No they made several versions of the string through / external magnet pickup, the pickup similar to a tele was used later on the champion lap steel. earlier was the organ button steel, the box car and the trapazoid pickup. The organ button pickup was a different dimension than the box car.
Using al 5 as a substitute wont do the same thing as the steel plate, you would be better off with al 2 with higher tpl if you want to raise the inductance but it still wont sound the same, if you have access to an inductance meter you can test it yourself. Tele pickups can sound quite good without the steel plate- its different. Copper wash is used to enhance solderability- it may be slightly cheaper than zinc plating- I dont recall. copper may give a little corrosion resistance but dont quote me on that.
as far as the string grounding- its a really crappy way to ground the strings! check out how many people have problems with generated static on teles- do a tele forum search.

[Mr McRuff]

Hey there LJ - thanks for joining in.

Yes you are correct, I found that patent too. I had to look at it and read the body of the description number by number to believe what I was seeing. I wonder what it sounded like, I would think more acoustic like given where the magnets are in relationship to the strings and the fact they (the magnets) are not sensing them. To me it looked like a 'work around' of the Rickenbacker 'Frying Pan' pickup.

Some patents of his are very interesting, like the one (can't recall number offhand) that places the poles to either side of the strings. Although a guitar is pictured, the design was later incorporated into the P Bass. The reason for the offset was stated as 'producing a more natural tone'. So there's a case of something starting out for a guitar, but winding up better adapted for bass. Given the time frame I guess he figured that 'rock' bassist only wanted to be heard better, but didn't want to give up the upright bass tone too quickly.

The one I still wonder about is the stealth guitar or Marauder as it was to be named. What a concept...and cool looking too!! What happened? One prototype and it died. I would think an on-board pre-amp might have helped, maybe a routed pick guard to allow the pickups to get closer to the strings. Ahead of it's time...too bad.

Back to the Tele pickup - I suppose you correct in saying it would sound different. I guess copper shielding tape wasn't around or readily available back then. You would think if you wanted to shield the pickup it would have been more cost effective than a clad steel machined plate. Okay you can punch from a plate, but you'd have scrap and then have to send the pieces out to get plated. In a way I'm surprised Fender would have went that route. And if you don't have some potting between it and the plate it can squeal or became microphonic.

You are probably right with the AlNiCo 2/Inductance route - it should yield more mid-range and less bite when picking. Have you seen/heard DiMarzio's Pre-B1 pickup? I had one when they first came out in the late 70s, it wasn't bad. I had it in my '69 Telecaster Thinline before moving back to solid bodies (wish I still had that one). He uses Al 5 rods, high resistance (43 or 44 ga wire I think...anyone know for sure?) and says it is designed 'not' to use the plate. It wasn't until now that I gave it a thought and visited the website for the specs.

I tried shielding the inside of a Stratocaster cover - top & sides (did a real good job too) with tape soldered carefully and grounded. It didn't take long to find out it's best wrapped around the coil because it took a great sounding pickup and made it micro-junk. Parts cannot move the slightest, it really needs to be one mass. I suppose that's why Seth Lover soldered the cover to the base on his hum-bucking design.

[Jim Shine]

I know nothing of Leo Fender's habits except that he was very, er, frugal.

Yes, but he wasn't frugal AND good with money. He never made a profit after selling Fender. He also gave away a lot of "loans" to people that never intended on paying him back.

Leo had a "thing" with patents. I suspect it may have been due to being sloppy about it in the early days and losing some ideas. Leo was always filing patents. And it would shock some that he would sometimes try lightly modifying an existing idea and push it through. It would be very interesting to see how many he applied for and didn't get. The number is likely much, much higher than the ones he was awarded.