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help choosing capacitors: mallory 150 vs juniper vintage tone vs orange drop ..

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  • #91
    Originally posted by R.G. View Post
    Let's not be too hard on him. He probably believes what he's saying, and the amps probably do differ. What's wrong here is that he doesn't recognize the real source of variation and thinks he's found a nugget.
    There has to me an element of confirmation bias in these kinds of tests. If it were otherwise, the 'cheap' cap/tubes/etc would come out on top 50% of the time.
    Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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    • #92
      And very important to measure all parts involved. If you have a XYZcap that says 0.022 on it, and an Orange Drop (or other favorite) that says the same, we don't know that they are the same. One might read 0.03 or 0.016 on a meter. Same with the comparable part. Unless they are both the same value as each other, it isn;t a fair test.
      Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Enzo View Post
        And very important to measure all parts involved. If you have a XYZcap that says 0.022 on it, and an Orange Drop (or other favorite) that says the same, we don't know that they are the same. One might read 0.03 or 0.016 on a meter. Same with the comparable part. Unless they are both the same value as each other, it isn;t a fair test.
        Agreeed!............And then there's ESR.
        "I took a photo of my ohm meter... It didn't help." Enzo 8/20/22

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        • #94
          Hmmm, component value and ESR do present a rather large fly in the ointment. Then, we'd have to order 25 x (or 50x) of each part, and sort through to get the closest values?
          The only good solid state amp is a dead solid state amp. Unless it sounds really good, then its OK.

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          • #95
            To be honest, I really would like to see a well executed comparison, using 4 or 5 of the top amp designs (marshall JCM and a JTM, a couple of Fenders a Vox, one of the earth shaker Ampegs...)
            The only good solid state amp is a dead solid state amp. Unless it sounds really good, then its OK.

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            • #96
              No matter what you do, the fender will still sound like a Fender and the Ampeg will still sound like an Ampeg.

              To me this is all an affliction of novice amp fans. The point of comparing based upon same value and ESR caps is that one should always look at BRAND comparisons carefully. Chances are the brand was not the major factor in any difference.

              These are just guitar amps, not lab equipment, there will always be variations in performance, not least of which will be changes in your mains voltage, which happen all the time. So ther is no such thing as this or that will always sound thus and so.
              Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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              • #97
                It would be an awful lot of work to demonstrate that functional caps of the same value sound the same.
                Really, consider what parameters and characteristics there are that could differentiate them.
                And how much those might reasonably differ.
                And then work out what effect it would have on the response of the amp if all were at one extreme or the other.
                Run the numbers and you may come to the conclusion that the tonal contribution of the particular caps used in an amp can't be anything other than minimal.
                My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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                • #98
                  I like to think of it in "order of magnitude" terms. Speaker swapping? You can see a 10-15+ dB difference in the response... clearly measurable and audible. Changing tone stacks and values of components? Once again, clearly noticeable, measurable differences. Changing bias, tube types, etc... somewhat measurable, noticeable. Shape, type, size and materials of your combo cabinet? Real, measurable. Once you start getting into the cork sniffing stuff (boutique capacitors and such) you really need to ask yourself if you've FULLY EXPLORED all the order of magnitude larger stuff on your tone quest before moving on to tweaking phenomena which by any reasonable scientific standard probably don't even exist except in the confines of your mind.

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                  • #99
                    Desoldering and resoldering is slow and tedious, but on a simple circuit such as a tube guitar amp itīs *easy* to compare: at every coupling cap position use 2 caps-to-be-compared, twisted on one end and inserted in the proper eyelet, free ends to ends of a spdt switch whose center leg goes to the next eyelet in the path.
                    All switches to the left: all SoZo caps; all to right: pure Orange Drop Heaven. (or whatever mix you wish).
                    Have a helper switch all left, play a couple chords, flip right and play same.
                    Go back and forth 50 or 100 times.
                    Update video to YT.

                    Notes:
                    1) it would help measure all caps and make same value (within 10%) pairs, so what you are actually comparing is brand and not capacitance

                    2) you could get fancy and use relays as each switch, the you footswitch them and save on helpers.

                    3) you could ger *real* fancy and let a computer back and forth and to keep track of results.

                    You might later get statistics about accuracy.
                    Juan Manuel Fahey

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                    • Originally posted by J M Fahey View Post
                      Desoldering and resoldering is slow and tedious, but on a simple circuit such as a tube guitar amp itīs *easy* to compare: at every coupling cap position use 2 caps-to-be-compared, twisted on one end and inserted in the proper eyelet, free ends to ends of a spdt switch whose center leg goes to the next eyelet in the path.
                      All switches to the left: all SoZo caps; all to right: pure Orange Drop Heaven. (or whatever mix you wish).
                      Have a helper switch all left, play a couple chords, flip right and play same.
                      Go back and forth 50 or 100 times.
                      Update video to YT.

                      Notes:
                      1) it would help measure all caps and make same value (within 10%) pairs, so what you are actually comparing is brand and not capacitance

                      2) you could get fancy and use relays as each switch, the you footswitch them and save on helpers.

                      3) you could ger *real* fancy and let a computer back and forth and to keep track of results.

                      You might later get statistics about accuracy.
                      Oooo I like 3) the computer idea! Im a software engineer by trade, and my favorite job ever was working for a hardware company that made machines. Nothing more satisfying (for me) that writing a software program that runs and interacts with hardware relays, sensors, switches, robots, lasers, . . . and soon to be guitar amplifiers
                      The only good solid state amp is a dead solid state amp. Unless it sounds really good, then its OK.

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                      • Triple cool
                        Then, if you have some free time, do it.

                        Itīs really simple to make a board carrying ..... what? .... 4 to 10 relays? ... printed but using eyelets where you will endlessly solder/desolder caps so you donīt care about peeling pads away, control them with a couple ULNxxxx (boy, am I showing my age ) , write some software so one cap line switches ON, it beeps (and blinks some light for a visual cue for the YT video) and stays in that state for, say, 20 seconds then mutes for 10 seconds and waits for you to press one of 2 buttons, labelled A and B (or, say, SoZo and Mustards or whatever), recording your choice, to be later compared to *actual* brand used at that moment.
                        It must randomly "cheat", often not switching at all but repeating last position, unknown to you of course.

                        Unless difference is gross, you will soon (in less than 10 clicks) lose count on whoīs who, plus it cheats often and at random, and you will only be able to offer unbiased opinion. (pushing what you think you hear).

                        Then the machine itself can both give you a long string of (good/bad) results if you wish but more important, do the (very simple) Statistics.

                        As good a Blind Test as ever developed.

                        Think about it
                        Juan Manuel Fahey

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