Fender Deluxe AB763 vs Fender Deluxe Reverb AA763 Schematic Filter Cap question

[Leo_Gnardo]

Has anyone used MIEC electrolytic capacitors? As far as I can tell, its very (very) small company in Taiwan, that makes pretty good specialty capacitors. They have guitar amp spec caps in excellent prices compared to the extortion charged by Vishay/Sprague.

Every electrolytic cap is cheap compared to Sprague Atoms. And if you cut open a Sprague Atom, know what you'll find inside? A tiny modern cap and a lot of stuffing. The only reason they're still made is to satisfy the corque sniffing bootique trade, they know they can make a couple hundred thou a year in profit.

Also nothing wrong with plastic shaft pots. Well, maybe, the only thing that can go wrong is if you bash your control panel, a little more likely to break.

End of Monday morning rant.

You have a shopping list at Antique right? Get ye some F&T filter caps, stop worrying about it. Excellent reputation & reasonable prices.

If you MUST go exotic, do like Carr & use Solen 630V film caps for hi voltage filters. They'll last practically forever, you won't have to set an alarm clock for 20 30 40 years in the future for replacement like electrolytics. But they're so big they won't fit in your doghouse. Bow wow wow, happy monday!

[mikepukmel]

Every electrolytic cap is cheap compared to Sprague Atoms. And if you cut open a Sprague Atom, know what you'll find inside? A tiny modern cap and a lot of stuffing. The only reason they're still made is to satisfy the corque sniffing bootique trade, they know they can make a couple hundred thou a year in profit.

Also nothing wrong with plastic shaft pots. Well, maybe, the only thing that can go wrong is if you bash your control panel, a little more likely to break.

End of Monday morning rant.

You have a shopping list at Antique right? Get ye some F&T filter caps, stop worrying about it. Excellent reputation & reasonable prices.

If you MUST go exotic, do like Carr & use Solen 630V film caps for hi voltage filters. They'll last practically forever, you won't have to set an alarm clock for 20 30 40 years in the future for replacement like electrolytics. But they're so big they won't fit in your doghouse. Bow wow wow, happy monday!

Thanks Leo.

[Leo_Gnardo]

What you get in a currently made Spraygoo:



An old thread right here on MEF: The truth about caps

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t16241/



Another thread from our friends at The Amp Garage:

Inexpensive Electrolytic Capacitors - The Amp Garage

And a rant from a guy on Audio Asylum who found the TAG thread:

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages...hts-of-lowness

To add more to the mystery, there's a USA company that was founded by some engineers who bailed out of Sprague, and vowed to make good caps the old fashioned way, plus keep 'em affordable. BMI, if I'm not mistaken, same initials as the music rights company. But - - - can you find any? Some big supply houses carry a couple of values but nothing much applicable to amp building and repair. Sometimes you can find one or two types at Apex Jr surplus sales. Apex Jr shows BMI 33 uF 450V $1.50 each, now that's affordable! I've found some other values made by BMI used in old Mesa/Boogies, shrink wrapped in blue plastic that looks just like Sprague. I guess they'll build you whatever you want, as long as you're ordering by the 10,000.

[mikepukmel]

What you get in a currently made Spraygoo:



An old thread right here on MEF: The truth about caps

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t16241/



Another thread from our friends at The Amp Garage:

Inexpensive Electrolytic Capacitors - The Amp Garage

And a rant from a guy on Audio Asylum who found the TAG thread:

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages...hts-of-lowness

To add more to the mystery, there's a USA company that was founded by some engineers who bailed out of Sprague, and vowed to make good caps the old fashioned way, plus keep 'em affordable. BMI, if I'm not mistaken, same initials as the music rights company. But - - - can you find any? Some big supply houses carry a couple of values but nothing much applicable to amp building and repair. Sometimes you can find one or two types at Apex Jr surplus sales. Apex Jr shows BMI 33 uF 450V $1.50 each, now that's affordable! I've found some other values made by BMI used in old Mesa/Boogies, shrink wrapped in blue plastic that looks just like Sprague. I guess they'll build you whatever you want, as long as you're ordering by the 10,000.

Oh man, what a terrible thing to do! Wow. Re BMI, yeah, 1.00, 1.50 that's what these mass produced electronic components cost. Shame on Vishay. I don't recognize the marking on the black color cap. The MIEC's are around the same price ,too 1.5, 2.00. The angry crowds of musicians with pitch forks and burning guitar necks should chase down Vishay execs and give them very stern looks.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Oh man, what a terrible thing to do! Wow. Re BMI, yeah, 1.00, 1.50 that's what these mass produced electronic components cost. Shame on Vishay. I don't recognize the marking on the black color cap. The MIEC's are around the same price ,too 1.5, 2.00. The angry crowds of musicians with pitch forks and burning guitar necks should chase down Vishay execs and give them very stern looks.

Remember Apex Jr is a surplus dealer, their prices don't necessarily reflect what a part's original cost was. They just buy 'em by the barrel & try to sell them, at a profit, but Apex buyers are usually taking only a couple at a time. Another Vishay story, well, legend: the "Holy Grail" caps provided in Ceriatone amps & kits are reported to be made for them by an Indonesian Vishay factory, and they are very close if not identical to what you find in "Atoms" although a fraction the size. AFAIK Ceria does not sell them separately, and when they do show up a couple at a time on ebay or other spots, the prices tend to run high and they get snapped up fast. Is there something magic? Only the belief of the buyers, as far as I can tell.

For a decade or two there was a brand "Black Gate" caps, made by a major Asian company, marketed to audiophiles and those who built amps & preamps for them. When they stopped making them, the prices went kookoo on the remainders. Currently Nichicon has a special brand also aimed at the same market. Whether they are any better than the run-of-the-mill, who knows? You'll have to spend some loot to find out, and also do careful double blind listening tests to evaluate whether they really have some advantage. The rest of us, we'll stick with the tried & true brands & sources we trust.

It's perfectly possible your MIEC caps are being bought and used by manufacturers, possibly having house brand wrappers put on for use in music & hi fi gear or being sold as replacement parts. What's even more likely is their products turn up an all sorts of non music gear, whatever needs a capacitor, they'll sell to them. Everything from cell phones to microwave ovens.

[mikepukmel]

Remember Apex Jr is a surplus dealer, their prices don't necessarily reflect what a part's original cost was. They just buy 'em by the barrel & try to sell them, at a profit, but Apex buyers are usually taking only a couple at a time. Another Vishay story, well, legend: the "Holy Grail" caps provided in Ceriatone amps & kits are reported to be made for them by an Indonesian Vishay factory, and they are very close if not identical to what you find in "Atoms" although a fraction the size. AFAIK Ceria does not sell them separately, and when they do show up a couple at a time on ebay or other spots, the prices tend to run high and they get snapped up fast. Is there something magic? Only the belief of the buyers, as far as I can tell.

For a decade or two there was a brand "Black Gate" caps, made by a major Asian company, marketed to audiophiles and those who built amps & preamps for them. When they stopped making them, the prices went kookoo on the remainders. Currently Nichicon has a special brand also aimed at the same market. Whether they are any better than the run-of-the-mill, who knows? You'll have to spend some loot to find out, and also do careful double blind listening tests to evaluate whether they really have some advantage. The rest of us, we'll stick with the tried & true brands & sources we trust.

It's perfectly possible your MIEC caps are being bought and used by manufacturers, possibly having house brand wrappers put on for use in music & hi fi gear or being sold as replacement parts. What's even more likely is their products turn up an all sorts of non music gear, whatever needs a capacitor, they'll sell to them. Everything from cell phones to microwave ovens.

Leo, check this out:

Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors, Run Start Capacitors, Film Capacitors

I just sent them an email asking about distributor and prices for other caps.

[mikepukmel]

Thanks, Leo, for helping me to overcome the capacitor madness:



I'm not refurbishing a classic vintage amp. I don't care what the caps look like.
12 bucks + 8.00 shipping = 20.00, get enough caps to build 2 Deluxe style amps.
Best I could do with F&T and similar is around 50.00 for ONE amp.

That is 30.00 left over for candy bars. Or knobs or pots, or wire or ...

[Leo_Gnardo]

Thanks, Leo, for helping me to overcome the capacitor madness:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43071[/ATTACH]

I'm not refurbishing a classic vintage amp. I don't care what the caps look like.
12 bucks + 8.00 shipping = 20.00, get enough caps to build 2 Deluxe style amps.
Best I could do with F&T and similar is around 50.00 for ONE amp.

That is 30.00 left over for candy bars. Or knobs or pots, or wire or ...

THAT is some price shopping! A penny saved is a penny earned, right?

Candy bars? Put your $30 in the piggy bank for the dentist.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Leo, check this out:

Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors, Run Start Capacitors, Film Capacitors

I just sent them an email asking about distributor and prices for other caps.

Yup, punch on "our products", the electrolytic caps have a familiar form factor don't they? But where the rubber meets the road, who's got 'em in stock, what values, what prices? I'm sure Apex Jr has 'em all beat for 33 uF 450V but as I mentioned that's a knock-down deal you could only get at a surplus house.

[mikepukmel]

There are some bloggers, I've seen posts here and there, who say they can hear the difference between some brands of filter caps. I can't quite believe that. OK, ok, for signal caps, where the instrument signal is being amplified and shaped, sure. But filter caps? If they have the same capacitance value, REALLY the same capacitance value, and similar internal resistance etc., I can't quite believe it. I did find posts from a builder, seemed like a little more of a guru (like you guys on this blog), who says he measures parameters on every cap he puts in. He said one brand was consistently on the low end of the tolerance band. OK so THAT would make some sense. You put a 16 +/- 20% in, or a 16 -10/+50 in and they all measure 13uf, that is a big percentage change from design target center. More ripple through the whole amp. ....

I would like to find someone out there, who has done a real blind test. Build two filter cap circuit boards, plug one in, and let two musicans use the amp, and record with it. Then swap boards a few times, brand A brand B, brand C, and see if you can hear the difference in any recording or see if the real musicians can hear a difference. Someone has to have done that?

[mikepukmel]

just saw and ad on "Best Deal Buys".com, for sprague "guitar amp capacitors 16uf 475v" for .... $23.99.

Sprague Atom Guitar Amp Capacitor 16uF 475V

Good Lord. Realistically a 70 cent capacitor for $23.99.

And there was a blogger who had an old Fender amp, cann't remember which one, was old and had a bunch of leaky 'brown turd' caps in it. The guy said he unsoldered out the old turd caps, put them up on Ebay "Vintage Fender Capacitors", got $300.00 for them at auction, and bought all new boutique brand for his amp.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Those who claim they can tell the cap brand, yes it would be a hoot to put them up to a double blind test. But they detest the test, knowing it will show them up for the fools they are. Audio Asylum has an area for cables - and the moderators make this a DBT-free area on purpose - because it is amusing to see what claims are made for hoity-toity expensive cables. Mention "double blind test" and you get ejected, that's the game. Remember, it's an Asylum, the people there know they're a little nuts. Maybe more than a little. Oops, Gingertube's there from time to time .

Something else about double blind tests, you have to make the changes quickly. The ear has a short memory, maybe half a minute at best. It really is best to make instant swaps, as our brains are very good at fooling us about what we're sensing given a little time. It seems we all have an inner used car salesman.

I'm saving up all my scrap capacitors, one of these days I'll flog 'em on Ebay & pay off my mortgage. Then take a holiday in Hawaii.

[mikepukmel]

Those who claim they can tell the cap brand, yes it would be a hoot to put them up to a double blind test. But they detest the test, knowing it will show them up for the fools they are. Audio Asylum has an area for cables - and the moderators make this a DBT-free area on purpose - because it is amusing to see what claims are made for hoity-toity expensive cables. Mention "double blind test" and you get ejected, that's the game. Remember, it's an Asylum, the people there know they're a little nuts. Maybe more than a little. Oops, Gingertube's there from time to time .

Something else about double blind tests, you have to make the changes quickly. The ear has a short memory, maybe half a minute at best. It really is best to make instant swaps, as our brains are very good at fooling us about what we're sensing given a little time. It seems we all have an inner used car salesman.

I'm saving up all my scrap capacitors, one of these days I'll flog 'em on Ebay & pay off my mortgage. Then take a holiday in Hawaii.

heh, I'll pitch in a few bucks if I can get a few of those old, leaky caps that are just about shorted (the ones with the mouse bites in them)!

There is a great Youtube vid, with a guy doing a sound test comparison, with two Deluxe amps, both with very different speakers. One sounds way too bright with a weber (not my favorite speakers).