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  • 5V to 200V DC to DC converter

    So, I was revisiting some Jim Williams design notes and I came across this interesting circuit for a 5V to 200V DC converter. I though this could be an interesting platform to inspire small tube preamps from a USB power supply or battery. But, then I though there is no good isolation from a high voltage fault. So, how would you go about mitigating the risk of exposure in the event of a fault? I suppose you could use a ADC/DAC at the input, but would latency be a problem? Maybe an RF connection to decouple the physical connection? In any case, here is the circuit with an excerpt:



    "Avalanche photodiodes (APD) require high volt-age bias. Figure 39.48’s design provides 200V from a 5V input. The circuit is a basic inductor flyback boost regulator with a major important deviation. Q1, a high voltage device, has been interposed between the LT1172 switch-ing regulator and the inductor. This permits the regulator to control Q1’s high voltage switching without undergo-ing high voltage stress. Q1, operating as a “cascode” with the LT1172’s internal switch, withstands L1’s high volt-age flyback events18. Diodes associated with Q1’s source

    terminal clamp L1 orginated spikes arriving via Q1’s junction capacitance. The high voltage is rectified and filtered, forming the circuit’s output. Feedback to the regulator stabilizes the loop and the RC at the VC pin provides frequency compensation. The 100k path from the output divider bootstraps Q1’s gate drive to about 10V, ensuring saturation. The output connected 300˜-diode combination provides short-circuit protection by shutting down the LT1172 if the output is accidentally grounded. The 200k trim resistor sets the 200V output ±2% while using standard values in the feedback divider.
    Figure 39.49 shows operating waveforms. Traces A and C are LT1172 switch current and voltage, respectively. Q1’s drain is trace B. Current ramp termination results in a high voltage flyback event at Q1’s drain. A safety attenuated version of the flyback appears at the LT1172 switch. The sinosoidal signature, due to inductor ring-off between conduction cycles, is harmless."
    If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

  • #2
    That's a low-current APD supply (avalanche photodiode), operating as a boost-mode converter. It wouldn't be good for a preamp tube supply. Coincidentally, I just happen to be designing some 90V APD supplies for a project I am working on right now.

    If you want an isolated high-voltage DC-DC converter, use a flyback-mode switching regulator with a flyback transformer. The transformer will give you isolation from the 5V side.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by raiken View Post
      That's a low-current APD supply (avalanche photodiode), operating as a boost-mode converter. It wouldn't be good for a preamp tube supply. Coincidentally, I just happen to be designing some 90V APD supplies for a project I am working on right now.

      If you want an isolated high-voltage DC-DC converter, use a flyback-mode switching regulator with a flyback transformer. The transformer will give you isolation from the 5V side.
      Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to look into some flyback supplies using a flyback transformer. One thing that concerns me is what sort of risks are there to the user physically connected to ground and being exposed to High Voltage? Where, in a normal amplifier, the earth/chassis connection would protect the user (provided the outlet was properly bonded).
      If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

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      • #4
        The 0v supply line is shared with the output and inherits the supply's grounding reference. So if the 0v side of your 5v supply is connected to mains earth, then you have a ground-referenced output like any other regular amp. If you power it off a double-insulated supply with no mains grounding, then you have an isolated supply.

        The circuit shown has very limited current capacity and would not be suitable for tube amp use. Also, you'd need separate provision for a heater supply. I prefer to use 12v which will supply the heaters and derive my HT and from that. It's important to have a high-current supply for boost converters - I recommend 3.5A or 4A. In a high-current converter the inductor is getting shorted across the supply at the switching frequency. So you have the inductor's impedance plus the series 'on' resistance of the switching MOSFET as the load across the supply.
        Last edited by Mick Bailey; 06-02-2017, 12:34 PM. Reason: Corrected reactance to impedance

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        • #5
          As it stands, it's rather low power, I'd estimate 1 watt max but I haven't studied the data sheet. I can see the attraction of 5V supply but it does means the pulsing currents are higher and that means care with the layout. You'd have a hard time to p2p wire this. It needs a thoughtfully designed PCB.

          If you are using this for a single 12AX7 at 1mA for side, that's 200x 2mA = 400mW so that looks possible. You can increase the power output by changing to a LT1170 with 5A switch and using a lower value inductor. The power out depends in part on L*I^2, but, guess what, the layout just got harder. Still you might get to 10 Watts or so.


          If this is for a pedal, it just seems easier to use a 24VAC or so wall wart and a voltage doubler.
          Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mick Bailey View Post
            The 0v supply line is shared with the output and inherits the supply's grounding reference. So if the 0v side of your 5v supply is connected to mains earth, then you have a ground-referenced output like any other regular amp. If you power it off a double-insulated supply with no mains grounding, then you have an isolated supply.

            The circuit shown has very limited current capacity and would not be suitable for tube amp use. Also, you'd need separate provision for a heater supply. I prefer to use 12v which will supply the heaters and derive my HT and from that. It's important to have a high-current supply for boost converters - I recommend 3.5A or 4A. In a high-current converter the inductor is getting shorted across the supply at the switching frequency. So you have the inductor's reactance plus the series 'on' resistance of the switching MOSFET as the load across the supply.
            You're right, I neglected the heater supply(and to notice the current limitations of the initial circuit). I see the logic in a 12V supply to simplify the heater voltage. But in the effort to minimize the current demands of the heaters I would wire them in series.
            But lets make this part of a practical exercise. I have a some JAN 6111 tubes, which I've been dying to get into. I'm going to design a phase vibrato/chorus using three 6111 tubes and probably a 1458 driven LFO. So how bout starting with a good ol' 9V supply feeding an inverter to supply a regulated +/- 9.5V 450mA(max) for the heaters and opamps and the 9V feeding the flyback regulator. Would this be a good starting point?
            If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by nickb View Post
              As it stands, it's rather low power, I'd estimate 1 watt max but I haven't studied the data sheet. I can see the attraction of 5V supply but it does means the pulsing currents are higher and that means care with the layout. You'd have a hard time to p2p wire this. It needs a thoughtfully designed PCB.

              If you are using this for a single 12AX7 at 1mA for side, that's 200x 2mA = 400mW so that looks possible. You can increase the power output by changing to a LT1170 with 5A switch and using a lower value inductor. The power out depends in part on L*I^2, but, guess what, the layout just got harder. Still you might get to 10 Watts or so.


              If this is for a pedal, it just seems easier to use a 24VAC or so wall wart and a voltage doubler.
              It probably would be easier to use a linear power supply, but I want to learn something new. I don't need 10W. To give the topic some direction, I have the mind to us a switching regulator for vibrato/chorus using 6111 tubes, where each triode section maxes out at 0.85W. plus, I won't be running these at the rails.
              If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've had really good results with the PSU shown in post #17. It works fine on 9v and layout isn't critical - I had the prototype breadboarded first without issue. Filter cap size can be smaller if you wish to reduce space - the ripple is ultrasonic.

                http://music-electronics-forum.com/t44325/

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                • #9
                  And the inductor is?

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                  • #10
                    I'll need to take a really good look. It's got heatshrink and epoxy and needs a little time to explore. 2/10 for effort on my part - I did say I'd post some figures.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SoulFetish View Post
                      So, I was revisiting some Jim Williams design notes and I came across this interesting circuit for a 5V to 200V DC converter. I though this could be an interesting platform to inspire small tube preamps from a USB power supply or battery. But, then I though there is no good isolation from a high voltage fault. So, how would you go about mitigating the risk of exposure in the event of a fault? I suppose you could use a ADC/DAC at the input, but would latency be a problem? Maybe an RF connection to decouple the physical connection? In any case, here is the circuit with an excerpt:
                      Cascode switching is a neat idea when you want some simplicity, but you are correct about the lack of isolation.

                      If it were me and a one-off excercise I'd go for 5V -> 12V boost followed by the cheapest and lowest power automotive 12 -> 120 AC converter to end up with similar functionality.

                      Another option is to build a full-fledged push-pull converter with a proper isolation and regulation, but that is not a trivial task.

                      Regards,
                      Adam

                      P.S. Hello everyone, I'm new here

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                      • #12
                        Hello Adam, welcome aboard the board.
                        Originally posted by Enzo
                        I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


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