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Thread: Jaguar Pickup & Coil Estimating

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    Jaguar Pickup & Coil Estimating

    Hi,

    Totally new to pickup winding, been building guitars for 25 years now, so I though it ought to be time I make a few pups of my own.

    I am using Jaguar flatwork, alinco 5 magnets and AWG 42 enamel wire. Aiming for 6.5K @ 8500 turns.

    My first attempt, winding 8200 winds, resulted in 5K DCR.
    Sounds VERY weak (lots of treble kinda middy and no bass)

    Second attempt, (tried winding to DCR) ended up with approx. 9000 winds.
    More output (little less than standard Fender Tele bridge pup) but still kinda weak.
    The mid-lows are getting a bit better, but still kinda weak sounding. (nothing like a Fender Jaguar (vintage version) pickup)

    So, I found and turned to the Coil Estimator application.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are a few things unclear to me:
    - What does the Flange" represent? (source code reveals the bobbin width)
    - What does the Max Winds value represent? (in my case this number is lower that the required winds)
    - Winding until 6.5 K DCR took over 10500 winds???
    Then the start lead broke at the eyelet , due to measuring resistance, pffff So I did not get a chance to test that pup.

    I am winding kinda slow, by hand, made a machine with a descent counter. Have to gt a feel for the wire-tension-feeding thing....

    What causes the value to be so different, real life vs coil estimator?
    How can one increase output and mid-low frequencies (say, more oompf)...

    Any hints would be very much appreciated!
    Cheers!
    Hans

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    Last edited by big_teee; 07-21-2017 at 06:14 PM. Reason: thread title match subject matter

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Welcome Hans,
    Not wound any Jaguar pickups, but they look like a type of strat pickup.
    The flange is the width of the flatwork, measured at the top.
    If you are not taping the bobbin magnet core before winding you may be having some shorting between the wire and the magnets.
    Your pickup height seems very tall. Tall makes a bright pickup.
    A typical strat pickup magnet height, measured between the flatwork, or between the flats, is .430 inches.
    I would try to shorten the pickup height some, and tape the magnet core before winding, and try again.
    The Estimator fill factor value has to do with how much wire will fit on the bobbin with between 70%-100% scatter.
    Scatter is how many turns per layer. The less turns per layer, will fill the bobbin faster, than more turns per layer.
    It has to do with the overlapping of the wire, as it builds up on the bobbin.
    Magnet type will also effect tone, and brightness.
    A2, A3, would be warmer sounding than A5.
    Select magnets depending on what tonal qualities you're shooting for?
    A5 is the most common rod magnets used.
    T
    **Anyone else making Jaguar pickups, please jump in!

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    Last edited by big_teee; 07-21-2017 at 04:35 PM.
    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    I found this SD layout of a Jaguar pickup.
    Looks like the bobbin height between the flats would be .455 inch, which is similar, but a little taller than a strat pickup.
    I worked up data for 6500 ohms DCR, with modern available 42 wire, with a .455" between the flats.
    With the data I provided, with my hand winding techniques, I would start with 8500 turns.
    T
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    Hi Mr. T!

    Thank you so much for pointing out the height dimension!
    As I ordered some of my parts at Mojotone, I must have looked at the "wrong" picture:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This pickup has adjustable polepieces and uses a (set?) bar magnets, kinda like a humbucker....

    After investigating I found these dimensions as well:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, I guess I ordered the "wrong" magnet length.... (based on 0.822" overall height)

    This brings me to a follow-up question:
    What will happen if I let the magnet protrude 0.1" through the bottom plate, diminishing the coil height.
    Or would I be better off equalizing it? (protrude 0.05" through top and bottom?)

    Is there a way to predict the effect of extending the length of the magnets outwards in that manner?
    Read something about a free application (FEMM?) that can plot magnetic field based on magnet/coil dimensions?

    Also like to mention I dip the bobbins in lacquer to prevent shorting out the inner(start)lead. (I test before winding, to minimize the chance of shorting out)

    Perhaps you (anybody else for that matter...) have found a specific way to attach the wire to the eyelets?
    I do seem to have an issue with attaching the wires to the eyelets, somehow the wire tends to break right on the (upper) edge of the eyelet VERY easy.
    Even after chamfering and sanding the edges smooth. (or... perhaps I am just being too clumsy...)

    Thanks again!
    Cheers!
    Hans

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    Last edited by hansgeerdink; 07-22-2017 at 08:23 AM.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Without pictures of your bobbins, cover and claw, it's hard to know what your dealing with, and working on.
    I don't see anything with bar magnets and adjustable pole pieces.
    All I see from mojo is the bobbin flatwork, cover and claw.
    Jaguar
    Then you would need 6 ---.688", rod magnets, per pickup.
    Not sure how the pickup is made on the bottom?
    You may be able to stick the magnets out the bottom like you suggest.
    There is not a lot of documentation around on jaguar guitar pickups.
    I work on a lot of Strat and tele pickups, but no jaguar stuff around here.
    Good luck on your project, and let us know your outcome.
    If anyone else has anything to add on jaguar pickups, please do!
    T

    **Found this picture of the bottom of the pickup and claw, and you can stick the magnets out the bottom.
    https://images.reverb.com/image/uplo...6aauoridgd.jpg

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    Last edited by big_teee; 07-22-2017 at 07:35 AM.
    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    Hi Mt. T,

    For my project I have standard Jaguar flatwork, .187 A5 rods (.780 length), standard covers with claw.
    It is not my intention to get a Jaguar sound per se, just looking for a good sounding pickup I can make and replicate myself.

    I have made a new bobbin, the rods protruding through the bottom and the height of the coil would be 0.45 - 0.455"
    Will keep this thread posted on my next windings....

    Any thoughts to share regarding wire hookup to the eyelets?

    Cheers,
    Hans

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  7. #7
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I would think the .780s would work fine.
    Just stick a bit more out the top and bottom.
    Clothe or PVC will work fine.
    Clothe has that vintage look most like.
    I've always liked a bit underwound neck pickups, and a bit overwound bridge pickups.
    Sounds like you have it under control.
    T

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

  8. #8
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    Well....
    Not really under control, to say the least.

    Wound a new coil based on the smaller height bobbin, as discussed earlier.
    Wound 8550 winds and measured the DCR and it reads 5.8K

    Pretty far off the 6.5K I am aiming for. Yes I do know that resistance is only part of the story!
    I have an LCR meter so I can measure inductance too and it also shows a low value, L=2.6-ish H.

    These values look quite similar to my first 2 wounds... Have not tried to hook up this pickup into my test-guitar yet.
    So I still hope the sound is okay...

    To double checked my counter I recorded the weight of the coil every 1000 (and 500 and 50 at the end) winds.
    By weighing the magnet wire one can calculate the expected number of windings.
    There was little discrepancy between my counter and the calculated number of turns.
    So I assume the counter works good.

    I then entered the value 5.8K in the Coil Estimator to see how many winding it would come up with:

    7201-7481-7659-7834-8007

    So, why do I need 8550 winds to get the same DCR?
    Am I winding too tight? Or too loose perhaps?
    Here is a picture of the coil, maybe I am doing something really stupid...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a closer view:

    Closeup_coil-01.jpg

    Regarding the eyelets:
    I am seriously having troubles keeping the start end and end of the wire from breaking, again a pic, a closeup:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Is there a trick to get the wire in the eyelets without the risk of breaking them?
    To fix it took me way too long! (sort of frustrating)

    I do use cotton pushback wire, just for coolness ;-)

    Okay, I am going to wind another just for practice I guess...

    Cheers!
    Hans

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  9. #9
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    Oops the second pic is kinda huge, was wondering, figured something wasn't right... Sorry!

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  10. #10
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Your bobbin in the last picture is not very full, and that probably is about 5.8K worth.
    The first picture did look pretty full?
    If you check to see that the start lead is not shorted to the magnets, with an ohm meter?(regardless whether you dip or tape)
    And, if your not chaffing the wire on a metal rod, or stop collar, etc, causing a short?
    Shorting could be the problem.
    T
    **If you could mic your wire in decimal, and measure 10 feet of wire in ohms, at room temp?
    That too, would tell us what gauge your wire is.
    If your wire is unusually large, and low ohms per foot, that would also be misleading?

    ++Anyone else got any ideas?

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    Last edited by big_teee; 07-23-2017 at 04:56 AM.
    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

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    Hi Mr. T!

    First and foremost let me start by thanking your again for taking the time to think with me!

    Wire:
    I bought it from Brocott in the UK.
    Here's the webaddress AWG42 Enamel Wire
    Did the following measurements:
    2 Meters was the smallest length my balance (500 grams in 0.01 grams increments) would register and measured 0.05 grams.
    2M being 6.56168 Feet
    0.05 grams being 0.001763698 oz (who said the Imperal System is so much easier? ;-))
    So, that would make 1 foot approx. 0.001763698 / 6.56168 = 0.00026878756659879786883846819716902 oz.

    Here's the recorded weight differences during winding:

    0000 - 1000 3.47
    1000 - 2000 3.53
    2000 - 3000 3.61
    3000 - 4000 3.69
    4000 - 5000 3.71
    5000 - 6000 3.83
    6000 - 7000 4.07 (this one is kinda high...)
    7000 - 8000 3.85
    8000 - 8500 2.02 (this one is kinda high too...)
    8500 - 8550 0.34
    Resistance of the wire:
    1 Meter records a resistance of 5.656 Ohm (I know it is less accurate than measuring 10 feet (3.048 Meters)
    1 Meter equals 3.28084 Feet extrapolated this results in 10 Foot = ~17.2395 Ohm
    Some how the Coil Estimator application does not let me change the resistance value at the bottom of the web interface...
    I saw you have a value there similar to the 17 Ohm range I just calculated.
    Hence me thinking the measurement are okay.

    Now we could also calculate the expected resistance... (I guess here is where I am going totally off ?)
    Total weight gained during winding: 32.12 grams
    This equals approx. 32.12/0.05 = 642.4 x 2 = 1248.8 Meters of magnet wire.
    2 Meters register 5.656 Ohm, extrapolated this would result in 1248.8 x 5.656 = 7063.2128 Ohm
    Like I mentioned, I do not take into account the form of the coil, not the tension of the wire and perhaps some other factors.

    Any way, nowhere near the 5.8K

    Regarding the 2 pictures of the bobbins, these are two different pickups.
    I took a picture of the start wire during the winding of an earlier attempt.
    The last pickup, reading the 5.8K with 8550 windings, looks almost saturated, as in that the sides are pretty much full.

    Did one more pickup and again needed 9000 windings to get 6.2K, bobbin pretty full!
    Getting a bit better, tone is indeed more complete (more mid-lows) however compared to a simple Fender single coil the output is very weak indeed.
    So still a bit disappointed in the results so far....

    Here's a pic of the "full" coil 6.2K @ 9000 turns: (a bit untidy perhaps?)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Would it make sense to use AWG43 just to get more windings on the bobbin?
    Or perhaps should I increase the tension to get more windings on the bobbin?

    Shorting the startwire:
    Maybe I am being totally stubborn and/or ignorant but I sincerely doubt that the start wire can short to the magnets.
    After assembling the bobbin I dip the bobbin in a modern cellulose lacquer (just the right consistency for dipping, not to thick not to thin)
    After curing I test for continuity and find it no where on the bobbins.
    You can also clearly see all is covered in a even layer of (matte) lacquer.
    Since the wire is also insulated, there is theoretically no chance of shorting the copper core to the metal of the magnets.

    If there is a short between the magnet and the wire, I should be able to read resistance (perhaps even continuity) between the magnet -top or -bottom and one of the end leads.
    Right? I will scratch off the lacquer of the bottom side of the magnets and try to get a reading. (just to make sure....)

    Just did the short test as described by myself... and guess what?
    Pickup #001 and pickup #003 show a short between the start lead and the outer two magnets!
    I am guessing the first winding must have some exposed copper wire.... but then again shooting blind here... :-(

    So, how much effect will these (short) shorts have on the output?
    I can image it will have a pronounced effect on resistance, however I am totally ignorant in this field. (as yo may have noticed...)

    Will have to find a better way to isolate the magnets.
    Tape will also leave a chance of the wire creeping between the edge of the tape and the magnets...
    Starting to get a bit frustrated...

    Okay more coffee and another attempt! (getting myself together hahahaha)
    Cheers!
    Hans

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  12. #12
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Your wire specs, sound about right.
    On the magnet wire short test.
    That is a test that needs to be done for every pickup build, regardless of the insulation used for the magnets.
    If shorted, I always start over, the only thing you have for known variables.
    My rule of thumb for neck, and bridge pickups?
    Underwound for the neck and full coil for the bridge usually, depending on flatwork flange size.
    I like neck pickups with no mud, and I overwind on the bridge, cause I try to fatten the bridge tone.
    Another thing to consider for a full coil at low ohms, is scatter overlap.
    The more turns per layer, makes a smaller coil, with more wire room.
    More scatter, does fatten the pickup tone with less wire.
    All of that has to be figured out how much, or how little scatter, by the winder.

    I recommend fixing the shorts, wind some more coils, and start sound testing!
    GL,
    T

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    It's only Rock and Roll, but I like it!

    Terry

  13. #13
    Senior Member salvarsan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansgeerdink View Post
    Resistance of the wire:
    1 Meter records a resistance of 5.656 Ohm (I know it is less accurate than measuring 10 feet (3.048 Meters)
    1 Meter equals 3.28084 Feet extrapolated this results in 10 Foot = ~17.2395 Ohm
    Some how the Coil Estimator application does not let me change the resistance value at the bottom of the web interface...
    Coil Estimator

    The Coil Estimator uses wire resistances and dimensions from industry standards, the NEMA 1000 in particular.
    Actual wire may be +/-5% because that is what is possible to make. This uncertainty means that any estimate will be within 7% of the actual number of windings, for example, 8000 winds +/- 500.

    Your wire, at 1.723 ohms/foot, is within 3.8% of the AWG 42 wire standard and is perfectly good.


    Several "fill factors" try to adjust for loose or tight winding but they are only approximate.

    The Coil Estimator estimates coil windings from a resistance + bobbin dimensions because the winding is the only unknown that can be easily calculated when a strange pickup visits your workbench.

    Adjusting for tension (unknown) and inelastic deformation (unknown) is only guesswork unless the pickup is unwound so that the wire can be measured accurately.

    The Coil Estimator is nearly 10 years old, written before any javascript libraries or JQuery widgets existed so, surely, someone else can do better.


    Jaguar Pickups

    The Jaguar pickup originally used Alnico II magnets.
    Alnico 5 magnets makes the sound brighter.

    For more bass, you can either put more wire in the coil or reduce the magnetic energy available, or both.

    Partially demagnetized A5 could bring the sound closer to what you want.

    A small steel plate on the bottom the pickup may also help.

    -drh

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    Last edited by salvarsan; 07-24-2017 at 04:49 AM. Reason: syntax
    The lofted fewmet doth soon hew close to the whirling blades.

  14. #14
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    Thank you guys for the input!

    I was testing all the pup made so far....
    Sounded all kinda crappy, what do you expect with shorts on the magnets! hahaha

    So, I undid the last one and added tape to the magnets, guess what?!
    Wire broke somewhere around 8000 windings (winder went crazy, so I lost count).
    For the sake of knowledge and experience I went ahead and hooked it up anyway.
    DCR 5.6K, Inductance are (to me) a whopping 2.352 H!!!

    I am actually getting descent output now! :-)
    Not all the way there yet, but I definitely keep the extra magnet insulating thing going!

    And Salvarsan, I have a bunch of those metal Claws and they top off the heights and also add some (~0.3H in this case) inductance.

    Yeah! feel a bit more confident now :-)
    Cheers!
    Hans

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