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  • #31
    Originally posted by bob p View Post
    Separating an AC from a DC component isn't that hard.
    If that were the issue, you're right, it's not. We have these capacitor things that do that job pretty well.

    But in the general case of a class AB amp, the DC is not constant. "Bias" is the DC current in both sides of the circuit in the absence of signal. When you impose signal, the signal turns one tube more on and one of them more off. At some point, the "off" tube shuts down entirely and the "on" tube carries the rest of that half-cycle. There is a complex half-wave-rectified signal running through the "on" tube until the signal shuts it down on the other polarity of signal, where the other tube then has its own complex half-wave rectified signal.

    The DC current from the power supply for all but class A biasing is a constant(-ish) DC at idle, and increases with increasing signal. That's one reason that AB biasing is even used: it makes better use of both the power supply capability and the power dissipation of the output tubes. So the trick in figuring out a bias level in the face of signal swings is to somehow subtract out the signal-caused current from the static bias current. Worse, what you're getting from the preamp is a signal voltage, and what you're driving is a non-resistive speaker load. So the output current (which is what you're trying to control with bias) varies in a way that the input voltage doesn't necessarily represent. Simple subtraction and scaling don't necessarily get you to where you want to be. Even if it did, you're doing the delicate operation of subtracting two quantities that are nearly equal to sniff out the difference you're trying to control. It's an error-prone process, just on that basis.

    And you want the DC bias to be always active, because simply biasing the tubes at no signal isn't what bias is for. It's for making the dynamic changeover from one signal polarity to the other happen in as smooth and non-objectionable a way as you can make it, in the face of all possible kinds of signal traversing both the top and bottom edges of the handover between polarities.

    So the task is to compute what the handover current is for wildly varying currents in the output stages, not just to separate AC from DC. It's a special DC buried in that mess. There are several ways to attack that. I tried a few of them that I could find from research or dream up on my own. Some worked, some didn't.

    At some point, having a couple of schemes work, I took a reality moment to think about what my objectives were. After all, I was after draining the swamp, not collecting alligator hides. Bias creep is real, and it gets worse with worse preparation of output tubes, as the residual positive gas ions poison things. It can't be dealt with easily if you have to haul the amp to a tech to get a re-bias. The obvious solution is to make the amp bias itself, right?

    That's a good approach, if you can do it well, and not make the amp otherwise less usable. A flakey self bias circuit is worse than the old model of haul-it-to-the tech. My cut on it was that if you can make rebiasing so simple that any guitarist that's sober enough to tell colors apart do it between songs in a set, you can actually allow the guitarist to keep his own tubes running, even in the face of bias creep.

    It's an alternate approach. Simply making bias happen on its own, with no user intervention, would be good. But it has to really, really work; even then, this forum will be entertaining posts about how to mod or bypass the autobiasing circuit to get the auto-amps back to fixed bias.

    IMO getting a handle on the bias problem is exactly what needs to be done -- especially when the tubes we have available today are all substandard, as the problem can only get worse.
    I'm with you on that. It needs some solving. But as my buddy Al said, everything should be as simple as possible - but no simpler.
    Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

    Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

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    • #32
      Your description makes it sound like an impossible dream, and while solving the problem may not be easy, there is already an entire line of Chinese amps on the market that does it.

      There were articles in TubeCad back 2005:

      http://www.tubecad.com/2005/May/blog0045.htm
      http://www.tubecad.com/2005/May/blog0046.htm


      The patent citations for this type of technology go back as far as 1975 when Motorola developed the technique for RF. There were a lot of filings from the 1980s toward the end of the 20th Century, showing that it was an actively developed pursuit in both RF amps and in audio power amps during that same era. Realistically speaking, this is old technology that we've been ignoring -- old enough that patents are expired already. I guess that explains why Bugera is all over this idea with their Infinium line.

      Here are a couple:

      https://www.google.com/patents/US6351189
      https://www.google.com/patents/US6683500

      The technology is in the Public Domain now and major manufacturers are already deploying it in tube amps. If somebody sold a board to do this, I'd buy it.
      "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

      "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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      • #33
        Here's a patent from 2011 for biasing a guitar amp from Fender which covers some technical details mentioned here:

        https://www.google.com/patents/US7944302

        And one from KBO Dynamics:

        http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publica...nalNumber=6299

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        • #34
          As I said,
          (1) it's possible.
          (2) it's not as simple as separating AC from DC.
          (3) it takes a fair amount of work to do it.
          (4) I've done it, a couple of different ways.
          (5) I consider auto-bias to be more fuss than is needed.
          (6) There are trivial ways to side step the fuss.

          To be fair, I did this without seeing those patents. I'll go read them and see if it's more trivial than I think at the moment. If it is something that can be cased up in a simple add-on, I can do that. In my mind, these have to not be audible when biasing, and not chase the envelope of the audio signal.

          Not an impossible dream - but it needs to be a dream you *want* to follow.
          Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

          Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

          Comment


          • #35
            Read the patents and articles.

            Looks like I re-invented some stuff, and PRE-invented some others, while having a few things that haven't come out yet.

            I'll have to dig through Fender's patent in more dail. Either I don't understand what they're doing, or their patent doesn't really describe what they're doing. I may not be understanding what they're saying, but to me their description of minima and maxima does not make sense, as the signal to the off-going side of an AB amp output tube does not bottom out at some minimum, but continues until it fully cuts off the tube; that likewise means that the minimum on an off-going tube is zero, not some minimum current that's relevant to computing the no-signal bias.

            But again, I may not understand what they're talking about fully, or they may have left some details out of the patent application; that happens. A lot. The IP and patents game IS a game.
            Amazing!! Who would ever have guessed that someone who villified the evil rich people would begin happily accepting their millions in speaking fees!

            Oh, wait! That sounds familiar, somehow.

            Comment


            • #36
              To be fair, at least the KBO Dynamics design uses many more "monitored" inputs than just cathode current. If I remember correctly, it monitors plate voltage and grid bias voltage as well. With more variables monitored the microprocessor can perform more accurate calculations of ongoing performance, and I suppose it also gets much easier to approximate when the amplifier is passing an AC signal or just idling.

              If I remember right both Fender and KBO Dynamics designs detect "idling state" from certain time delay of no-signal condition. Then bias is automatically adjusted. The fault preventions, I believe, are continuously on.

              Anyway, further information is there to read in those patents. I think there were more of them for the KBO Dynamics "TubeSync technology", which by the way is quite popular product in its various forms. They have a website too, BTW. Orange - I believe - is the most famous manufacturer that uses those KBO Dynamics modules. Parsek (Markbass, DVmark, etc.) also has similar patents (IIRC Parsek patents were European so Google Patents search may not find them) and most likely likes of Marshall and Behringer have simply just designed their own similar systems, because they can. As it was said earlier, it's moderately trivial task for a talented designer to devise an auto-biasing or tube / amp protection circuit, or both combined. Hughes&Kettner amps such as TubeMeister series (18W & 36W) both feature output tube protection with cathode MOSFET switches, and the same setup double duties as a "standby" feature that is much more "amp friendly" than that horrendous scheme of controlling the B+ supply with a flimsy mechanical switch.

              Unfortunately there's always the crowd who view this stuff just as "more sandstate cr*p to fail". I guess it's their loss, not ours.
              Last edited by teemuk; 07-27-2017, 03:04 PM.

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