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Thread: WRHB Bobbins Machine Wound?

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    WRHB Bobbins Machine Wound?

    Can anyone say whether or not WRHB bobbins were machine wound or not?

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Machine. Likely a COWECO or Meteor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    Machine. Likely a COWECO or Meteor.
    Thanks Jim. Any idea of the tpl, ball park or otherwise?

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Thanks Jim. Any idea of the tpl, ball park or otherwise?
    TPL specifics are generally well keep secrets of most winders. However, if you poke around the web you'll find some nuggets of info. Or find a broken coil and count turns until you see a pattern of TPL emerge.

    I never really liked their sound when they first came out, but, as I've aged, I've grown to like it. Experiment around with TPL and turn counts until you find a formula that sounds good to you. TPL is important, but in these pickups the actual CUNIFE magnet trumps TPL IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    TPL specifics are generally well keep secrets of most winders. However, if you poke around the web you'll find some nuggets of info. Or find a broken coil and count turns until you see a pattern of TPL emerge.

    I never really liked their sound when they first came out, but, as I've aged, I've grown to like it. Experiment around with TPL and turn counts until you find a formula that sounds good to you. TPL is important, but in these pickups the actual CUNIFE magnet trumps TPL IMO.
    Yes, yes, the ever secret TPL. I should know by now not to even ask.

    I thought I knew but have 2 original pickups I am repairing right now from flood damaged guitars and each have different TPL on 2 coils. I'd never seen this before. But since this is all secret stuff I won't get into what those counts were.

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    Not Handwound & about 100tpl
    Of coarse not nothing was handwound after 65
    why would a design by Seth be any different as he didn't handwound anything with Gibson .
    my 100 tpl was taken from one of the Wide range MIJ reissue pickups that I've rewound .I'm know the originals were different .wink

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    Senior Member ReWind's Avatar
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    Machine wound and every one I've ever seen has had the exact same coil. No neck/bridge and no screw/slug coils, just "WRHB coils." Are you sure of your turn counts and that the coils are original? We are talking about the ones from the 1970's, right? Like these...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    What's the saying .........sAME BULl shit different pile ...? 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReWind View Post
    Machine wound and every one I've ever seen has had the exact same coil. No neck/bridge and no screw/slug coils, just "WRHB coils." Are you sure of your turn counts and that the coils are original? We are talking about the ones from the 1970's, right? Like these...
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20160129131607-eed1e1d4-xl.jpg 
Views:	82 
Size:	396.9 KB 
ID:	44752
    Exactly. Have never seen any that didn't have identical coils. So it's possible both pickups already had rewound coils or got mixed and matched at some point. I thought I was very sure my turn counts were correct but the coils that don't match that look to be machine wound, too.

    So I am just going to assume those coils were machine rewound at some unknown time.

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Yes, yes, the ever secret TPL...
    That just shows how important TPL is to the sound. But, as we all know, is only one of the MANY variables that really count. With the original WRHB the CUNIFE magnets, and their position in the coil, IMO play a slightly greater role than TPL --- but all are important.

    As far as mismatched coils, they can create some great sounds...in the right combination.

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    =============================================

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    That just shows how important TPL is to the sound. But, as we all know, is only one of the MANY variables that really count. With the original WRHB the CUNIFE magnets, and their position in the coil, IMO play a slightly greater role than TPL --- but all are important.

    As far as mismatched coils, they can create some great sounds...in the right combination.
    Well no doubt. But I have and still do find it odd that on a forum of this sort it's not only heavily guarded information but also a source of misinformation at the hands of certain winders. It'd be like a forum dedicated to crate engines where no one ever talks about points gap as if the timing were all that mattered in a small block build.

    And if it were the tpl of a forum member's in production pickup it'd make sense (and does). But when it's more of a historical question...

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    Well no doubt. But I have and still do find it odd that on a forum of this sort it's not only heavily guarded information but also a source of misinformation at the hands of certain winders. It'd be like a forum dedicated to crate engines where no one ever talks about points gap as if the timing were all that mattered in a small block build.

    And if it were the tpl of a forum member's in production pickup it'd make sense (and does). But when it's more of a historical question...
    You're learning.
    When guys first get on here, they gather and share.
    As time goes on, and the guys that are in biz, still gather, but most quit sharing.
    I try to share most everything (I'm retired and don't give a damn), but I don't know much about wide range pickups, that I don't make.
    I suggest to make and test pickups that sound good, make your own TPL, and don't worry about the historic data so much.
    Around here, guys used to take out the WRHB's, because they didn't like the sound of them.
    On the magnets, about the only adjustable pole piece magnet is the expensive alnico.
    GL YMMV,
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 09-04-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    You're learning.
    I suggest to make and test pickups that sound good, make your own TPL, and don't worry about the historic data so much.
    Around here, guys used to take out the WRHB's, because they didn't like the sound of them.
    On the magnets, about the only adjustable pole piece magnet is the expensive alnico.
    GL YMMV,
    T
    This is about the repair of an original wrhb.

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    ...And if it were the tpl of a forum member's in production pickup it'd make sense (and does). But when it's more of a historical question...
    And you hit the nail on the head. Yes, TPL is only a part of the equation...though a big part. And asking a "Historical Question" is almost like asking someone into giving away part the farm. Yes, to many it is common knowledge, and to most of those who have this common knowledge it came from years of study and experience. Why should any of us just give it away, even if it is just a hobby to most? I'm free with a lot of things and will gladly help others who ask. But certain things are just too precious to broadcast.

    I've shared many things on the forum including some TPL counts. If I mention a specific TPL I am almost certain to receive a PM on the topic. Some saying I shared too much, others sharing even more info.

    I guess, at the end of the day, we all need to do our own due-diligence to see what really matters in our builds or restorations. But you should always ask and see what you get back...as you did. I like the fact you you did do your own study and got conflicting counts...This happens too me even today. Your experience may be, in fact, correct as I see variances off the standard at times and can only attribute this to possibly being wound on different machines at different times...just look at Gibson over the years. Or it could be a rewind...keep ALL your notes and decide for yourself. Most of my favorite formulas differ widely from the "Historical Units"

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    Last edited by Jim Darr; 09-05-2017 at 03:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    And asking a "Historical Question" is almost like asking someone into giving away part the farm.
    You know, I just wrote a whole treatise about why I disagree with this statement and then I erased it. It's an endlessly moot point.

    Everything else you said I mostly agree with.

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    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    That just shows how important TPL is to the sound.
    Is it really? If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success. I never do. I just wind neatly.

    And since every hand wound coil is random, every hand wound single coil should sound very different. Right? Since the TPL is also random. Especially if you scatter.

    But that's never the case. If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same.

    So I'm of the opinion that TPL is not as important as people think. I pay no attention to it, and all my pickups of one model sound the same. But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Schwab View Post
    Is it really? If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success. I never do. I just wind neatly.

    And since every hand wound coil is random, every hand wound single coil should sound very different. Right? Since the TPL is also random. Especially if you scatter.

    But that's never the case. If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same.

    But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.. I pay no attention to it, and all my pickups of one model sound the same. But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind.
    "Is it really?" YES, it really is important!!! A low TPL count will sound much different than a high TPL count. I've performed controlled tests and this proves true each time. The trick is being able to relilibly count and control TPL.

    "If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success." AGREE

    "If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same." No they really don't if you hand guide.

    "But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind." This may be true for you, but most for most hand guided winders it is probably not.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I agree with DS.
    I get consistent results hand winding.
    Those that say you can't, are usually machine winders.
    Use what you have, and Use what you like.
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    "Is it really?" YES, it really is important!!! A low TPL count will sound much different than a high TPL count. I've performed controlled tests and this proves true each time. The trick is being able to relilibly count and control TPL.

    "If you hand wind, you can't count the TPL with any success." AGREE

    "If you wind two coils with the same number of turns, they sound the same." No they really don't if you hand guide.

    "But I also acknowledge that I might very well wind them all with a similar TPL, just because that's the way I wind." This may be true for you, but most for most hand guided winders it is probably not.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that what DS meant weren't extreme variations of high and low TPL.

    Have your controlled tests measured the difference between hand winding and mechanical drift in any given mechanical setup and, if so, were those tests listening tests or tests that, while showing a difference, may not be audible (clearly or otherwise)?

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    I agree with DS.
    I get consistent results hand winding.
    Those that say you can't, are usually machine winders.
    Use what you have, and Use what you like.
    T
    Teee,

    For the record, again, I hand wind & machine wind.

    I get "very similar" results hand winding, not "consistent". That is the nature of hand winding, even if you are very experienced at it. I am well aware that many will take exception to this position. But, from my experience this is true.

    I don't believe one is better than the other. Really I don't!!! Each has its place. And each has its pros and cons.



    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that what DS meant weren't extreme variations of high and low TPL.

    Have your controlled tests measured the difference between hand winding and mechanical drift in any given mechanical setup and, if so, were those tests listening tests or tests that, while showing a difference, may not be audible (clearly or otherwise)?
    jrdamien,

    To me, the only tests that really matter are "listening tests".

    You can eliminate most "mechanical drift" issues with a properly setup auto traverse machine. I am talking about well maintained commercially made winders, not home brew builds.

    I can only speak from my own experience both hand winding and machine winding. AND, I know that others will have their own opinions based on their experience. I am not pitching one as better than the other, just pointing out some truths IMO.

    And since some will disagree with my conclusions it is better to just leave it as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post

    jrdamien,

    You can eliminate most "mechanical drift" issues with a properly setup auto traverse machine. I am talking about well maintained commercially made winders, not home brew builds.
    If only Gibson had access to this knowledge.


    I can only speak from my own experience both hand winding and machine winding. AND, I know that others will have their own opinions based on their experience. I am not pitching one as better than the other, just pointing out some truths IMO.

    And since some will disagree with my conclusions it is better to just leave it as that.
    I was not being snarky but seriously asking if it was a listening test or otherwise.

    And at the end of the day this issue is moot, even here and even among those who don't think TPL is the end all-be all but are still reluctant to share numbers.

    As to WRHB original tpl I've got the answer.

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    Senior Member Jim Shine's Avatar
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    Back on topic, just for future reference, every pickup made at CBS was machine wound. Hand winding was too inefficient for the high volume production they required. The machines began well before CBS and have continued to be used on mass production Fender pickups to the present day.

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    Senior Member Jim Shine's Avatar
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    And in regards to TPL, for me, as a hand winder, it is nearly impossible to be accurate, so I ballpark. Rather than count my turns per layer, I watch the wire lay down. Different bobbins and the different machines I use tend to develop a certain pattern in how the wire goes on. I watch what it is doing and I do my best to cleanly lay down a layer of wire with no gaps. Back and forth, as close together as I possibly can make it. I have actually been thinking about wiring a strobe light with the trigger activated by the counter sensor to help with this. A strobe light for adjusting engine timing would be perfect. But will it just make my eyes go crazy?

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    If only Gibson had access to this knowledge.

    I was not being snarky but seriously asking if it was a listening test or otherwise.

    As to WRHB original tpl I've got the answer.
    Gibson's winders were consistent in TPL patterns according to what machine they were wound on. They used several machines (hint, hint). But the total "Turn Count" was all over the place which helps perpetuate the myth that they had very little control whatsoever.

    I didn't take your statement as being "snarky". I was truly trying to answer your question.

    Very glad you got the TPL number you were looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Darr View Post
    Gibson's winders were consistent in TPL patterns according to what machine they were wound on. They used several machines (hint, hint). But the total "Turn Count" was all over the place which helps perpetuate the myth that they had very little control whatsoever.

    I didn't take your statement as being "snarky". I was truly trying to answer your question.

    Very glad you got the TPL number you were looking for.
    I was joking about the Gibson comment.

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    Senior Member Jim Darr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrdamien View Post
    I was joking about the Gibson comment.
    Thought you were, but wasn't 100% sure as many of today's winders believe there was no rhyme or reason to real P.A.F. consistency from their golden period in the late 50s to early 60s. There is a lot of hype and misinformation floating around on the web concerning these pickups!!!

    Good luck on the WRHB restoration.

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