The cost of gear, some interesting data

[Justin Thomas]

My 79 has a 20W Emi in it, no idea of model or anything, but it's 4R, so I crank away.

Justin

[Chuck H]

"Boy, THIS is the second best Jazz Bass in this shop, any model, any brand, any price, Iīm picking the best one for me and you buy this Squier for you, donīt let it go, donīt accept another"[/I]

You have to know he meant it! I mentioned in another thread that my history is peppered with "affordable, used gear". I know it when I hear it and play it. The straight scoop is that wood is such a variable product that WRT solid body instruments you really can't know which one will get the right balance. Good builders/luthiers can get consistently good results, but those special pieces are, to some degree, a matter of chance. I had a Yamaha SBG200 (their cheapest model of that series) that had all kinds if "it" dripping from every poor. I played that guitar until I wore out the frets and pots and gave it away. I wish I would have had it refretted and fixed the electronics now because those pieces are rare and special regardless of provenance.

[bob p]

I once had a co-worker who was offered a very high-paying job working for a major petroleum company. The catch was that he would be located in Saudi Arabia.

He told me he thought it over, but the prospect of spending years in a place where you couldn't go out for a drink, couldn't talk to women, couldn't have a party, and might be executed for any one of several offences that are not offences at all to Westerners, was too daunting to contemplate.

-Gnobuddy

I was solicited for a job in SA by a headhunter. It offered a $500,000 salary, but the social restrictions were tight, as you mentioned. The only place where you could do any of the "Western" things was within the confines of the American residence compound, where nobody else in SA could see it happening ... and even then, you did it at your own risk. I passed.

[J M Fahey]

Once I was in a Taxi talking in English with a friend, and to my surprise the driver, who was 100% Native American from our northern provinces answered in perfect fluent American English, Texan English to be precise.
To my (polite) surprise, he answered: "I am an oil drill operator (in Argentina), was transferred to Houston where I earned twice as much, and then to Saudi Arabia, where I earned 10 times as much ... but couldnīt stand it so after a couple years I came back ..... if you forgive my French: *sheer* lack of c*nt"
He said there were commuter flights to Egypt or Turkey to relieve "manīs needs" but it was expensive and in any case, only once a Month, so ......

[The Dude]

Oh, I agree completely. A lot of musicians don't, though; between being right-brain-dominant, and having "you get what you paid for" drummed into them for years, many believe that the more expensive the instrument, the better it sounds. Not just when it comes to guitars, either - remember the infamous 2010 research study on Stradivarius violins that concluded modern violins were better? There's been a follow-up ( https://www.thestrad.com/blind-teste...ts/994.article ), but I'm betting 'Strads won't become any cheaper as a result.

-Gnobuddy

Interesting read on the Stradivarius study! I can see how that would get the hoity-toity types all up in arms.

It must be hard to admit that you spent millions on an instrument that can be outdone by a cheaper current model.

[Enzo]

Well, if I were going to give you a guitar, and I had all of them, would you rather have a strat that Jimi played at Woodstock, or an identical one from a warehouse unused? Or the Jimi guitar versus a newer "better" one?

Symphony musicians are also formal. They will wear a tuxedo even if it can be shown they play better in sweats and a tee. it means something to them to have the opportunity and the wherewithal to own/play that old strad.

[The Dude]

If you were going to give me one, I'd take the Jimi guitar.
If I had to buy one, I'd take the one I could afford.
The point being cost vs performance.
But, I do take your point.

[Enzo]

OK, I'll juice it up a bit. You are the guitarist in a Jimi Hendrix tribute band.

I am pretty sure there will be no Mighty Enzo tribute bands.

[Chuck H]

Well, if I were going to give you a guitar, and I had all of them, would you rather have a strat that Jimi played at Woodstock, or an identical one from a warehouse unused? Or the Jimi guitar versus a newer "better" one?

Symphony musicians are also formal. They will wear a tuxedo even if it can be shown they play better in sweats and a tee. it means something to them to have the opportunity and the wherewithal to own/play that old strad.

I gave like because I wouldn't be immune to a guitar with some Jimi on it But...

My wife loves the cello so she decided to learn to play. Unfortunately about a year in she had to admit that bowing exacerbated a worn rotator cuff condition and had to give it up It broker her heart really. But I digress. Her cello was a rented instrument. We selected the best sounding of the available instruments and I set it up. Some weeks later we went to an event at a local college featuring the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. The cellist was using a fine old instrument made in Italy. It sounded like crap. Whenever the cellist had a featured moment and was especially audible Pia and I just looked at each other in confusion. I think a plywood box with a 2x4 screwed on for a neck would have sounded about the same. Maybe I have a tin ear for the finer things. But maybe that cello just sounded like crap too.

[The Dude]

OK, I'll juice it up a bit. You are the guitarist in a Jimi Hendrix tribute band.

I am pretty sure there will be no Mighty Enzo tribute bands.

Oh that's easy. I happen to be in a tribute band, so I have first hand knowledge of this. If you were giving away the Hendrix guitar, I'd take it. However, it wouldn't be because it played or sounded better. It would be purely for the collector value. Even if I had it, I wouldn't take it out on the road for fear it would get stolen or trashed. I would instead buy a cheap guitar that looked like his and replica it to look more authentic. I have, in fact, done this with the guitars I use for my own tribute band. They look, play, and sound as good as "the real thing" at a fraction of the price.

[Justin Thomas]

I'm fairly convinced that I would not like the sound of a real 1950 Broadcaster. That doesn't mean I won't play it if I get the chance. Or that old gut-string Martin. But there's just some things I'll do just to enjoy the experience. And <MAYBE> if I like one enough, I'll sell some stuff to get it...

Justin

[glebert]

It must be hard to admit that you spent millions on an instrument that can be outdone by a cheaper current model.

As far as I understand very few musicians own the really rare instruments. They are usually on loan from foundations or private collections.

[Leo_Gnardo]

As far as I understand very few musicians own the really rare instruments. They are usually on loan from foundations or private collections.

There's rare, and there's rare and costly. You're correct I'm sure as far as Stradavarius, Amati, Guarneri and more, rare and costly instruments owned by foundations & well-heeled collectors, played by top musicians in concerts. In 2003 a violinist acquaintance of mine mortgaged a terrific violin by one of the great builders' contemporaries, $100,000 for an excellent sweet sounding instrument made by "one of the other guys in town," that town being Cremona in the early/mid 1700's. Doubtless it has acquired more cash value over the years but no matter, she's going to play it the rest of her life, under appropriate conditions. Regular gig is playing in Broadway pit orchestras. The collector-item violin would be lost in the sauce there so she normally plays one of her second-line instruments. And the prize violin is what she plays on those occasions where she can make it shine, in small-ensemble concerts and sometimes for recordings.

[glebert]

I gave like because I wouldn't be immune to a guitar with some Jimi on it But...

My wife loves the cello so she decided to learn to play. Unfortunately about a year in she had to admit that bowing exacerbated a worn rotator cuff condition and had to give it up It broker her heart really. But I digress. Her cello was a rented instrument. We selected the best sounding of the available instruments and I set it up. Some weeks later we went to an event at a local college featuring the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. The cellist was using a fine old instrument made in Italy. It sounded like crap. Whenever the cellist had a featured moment and was especially audible Pia and I just looked at each other in confusion. I think a plywood box with a 2x4 screwed on for a neck would have sounded about the same. Maybe I have a tin ear for the finer things. But maybe that cello just sounded like crap too.

For the old acoustic instruments much of it also has to do with who has rebuilt it over the years, because they have all been rebuilt. Knew a guy who commissioned a reproduction of a famous Strad cello, and the luthier asked him what phase of its life did he want it built to, because it changed so much.

[bob p]

It must be hard to admit that you spent millions on an instrument that can be outdone by a cheaper current model.

Those classical musicians that own a Strad are the rock-star types in classical music. The reason that they own a Strad is more mojo/prestige related than tone related, IMO.

The pop/rock analogy for those people is the rock star who buys a 1959 LP Standard "burst" because of it's mojo factor, not because it can't be outdone by a cheaper instrument. If you compare the LP that come out of the Gibson custom shop today, they're every bit as good as the vintage instruments. There are a lot of rock gods out there who don't really care that their 59 'burst can be outdone by a cheaper current production model, because they're willing to pay for that mojo, and they get to write-off the instrument as a equipment expense against their income during their high-pay years. (In many cases they buy the 59 'burst as an investment, or as an expense "for recording and studio work" and then take a brand new R9 out on the road.)

Some of that vintage gear hoarding among the top level pros could be due to tax planning. When a performer is making millions and he's in the top tax bracket, it's not uncommon for them to buy $500,000 instruments so that they don't have to pay tax on that income. Instead of splitting their income with the IRS they'll put it into an instrument because they like to think that they have a valuable asset that works as a store of wealth for them. When they get older and their royalty streams get cut off, they end up selling out of those expensive investments at a time when their income stream is lower and their tax bills are lower.

In the big scheme of things, high-value vintage instruments end up being used as tax shelters/tax-deferrment for high-income performers. In that respect, they're leveraging the fact that the expensive vintage instrument can be equaled by something that's current-production and cheap.