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Thread: This should be interesting :popcorn:

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    Senior Member Silvertone Jockey's Avatar
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    This should be interesting :popcorn:

    It's now claimed that tube bottle size affects your tone. I think I can say that I've heard it all now. You know how it is on youtube, your looking at videos about one thing, and then you see a video that may or may not be related to the one thing you searched for right? Well I came across this gem. You guys have a word for some people who think stuff like this makes a difference but I can't remember what it is.

    edit: I'm sure it would affect the tone if the tube is microphonic. I personally don't dig microphonic tubes


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  2. #2
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Of course comments are disabled for that video.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    (Cough BS Cough)
    Anyway, wouldn't the only way to REALLY test this be to stick EL84 guts in a KT88 "bottle" and see what happens? I'm neither willing nor inclined to really care.

    Who is that guy? Now we're gonna have everyone underbiasing their guitar amps for "better bass response." Also, I only see 3 knobs on the Normal channel of that Super Reverb. That makes it a 50W, right? And, no mention of circuits? I've made a 6L6 amp that was plenty bright and crisp without a lot of bass response...

    Justin

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    Last edited by Justin Thomas; 03-04-2018 at 08:19 PM.
    "... If an older Boogie and classic Marshall had a (clearly illegitimate) child and you baked it in an oven set to clown shit crazy." - Chuck H. -
    "When receiving a shock I emit a strange loud high pitched girlish squeak." - Alex R -
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    Senior Member Silvertone Jockey's Avatar
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    I draw the line at the composition of capacitors making a difference. This has gone too far

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    That's Nate Westgor. Owner/operator of Willies American Guitars in St. Paul, MN. He likes to brag about famous guitarists that have visited his shop. I'd love to be there some time when he's talking his smack to one of them and politely insert myself into the matter.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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    Stray Cap DrGonz78's Avatar
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    But he looks so knowledgeable sitting there next to all that gear!! Only watched the first 42 seconds without sound and saw him blowing into bottles. My thought was he believes that electrons are are like wind blowing into a bottle. I'll watch the whole thing later tonight after work. It will keep me in suspense all night long...

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    When the going gets weird... The weird turn pro!

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I might buy that a big bottle 6CA7 sounds different from a narrow bottle EL34, but not because of the glass size, they are just different brands of tube. Just as I might expect a JJ EL34 to sound different from a Sovtek.

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I wonder if he burned his lips in the early stages of developing this theory?

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Does he not know that amplifier tubes will go down to DC? Or a coke-bottle 6L6 sounds the same as the small-envelope 6L6? Talk about having a flat-earth perspective on things. Maybe a larger tube has 'more' vacuum.

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  10. #10
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    In the first place, the reality is that it takes "more power" to create lower, more-solid bass. Larger tubes are designed to put out more power, thus larger tubes are capable of creating better, tighter bass, given that the circuitry is designed for more bass response.

    In the second place, higher-wattage amps may have speakers that are capable of handling more power, and more bass. A 15-watt combo amp with one Celestion Greenback, and using EL84 or 6V6 tubes is much less likely to be able to respond and push lower notes as well as a Marshall amp with EL34s or 6550s, with 4 of the same speakers, the Celestion Greenbacks. EL34s are a bit smaller size than 6550, and the 6550s CAN sound a bit more "clean and bassy", but I'm sure that's due more to the tube characteristics and circuitry electronic differences than "bottle size".

    There are SO many other factors involved than just "bottle size". For his theory to be tested, he'd have to have the EXACT SAME tube innards, placed inside different size bottles, and compared and measured in the same exact amp, wouldn't he? That ain't gonna happen!

    I wonder if he just thinks it's maybe a variation in the time the electrons scatter, bounce around and get collected to push through the rest of the circuit, and he believes a larger bottle "takes a bit more time, and can produce more bass"? Or, something like that?

    I've had people ask me, "Why does everyone say tube amps sound better than solid state amps". I tell them they are just "smoother", and then if they ask more, try to explain "even-order harmonics". If they still question, I resort to "MY theory", which IS only a theory, but I can imagine it.

    I tell them that when a signal hits a tube, the electrons get heated and scattered from an element, outward inside the vacuum of the tube, maybe bouncing off the glass, maybe out-some then over. Then, they are collected fairly randomly by another element and sent through to the next components. It happens very quickly, but it does introduce a little bit of a distortion of the signal, which sort of "smooths" the SOUND of the signal. Each tube the signal passes through does some of that. A transistor, on the other hand, sends the electrons straight through a very narrow pathway, basically in the same order from input to output, and probably a bit faster and more immediate. It could be a MUCH "cleaner" signal, much closer to the original, but it loses that "smoothness" that tubes impart. That's only MY theory, as I have never really seen anyone explain in these simplified terms, but it's how I imagine it.

    I, myself, may be completely wrong in my oversimplification. And, maybe the guy in the video had SOMEWHAT of the same idea, and thinks a "larger bottle" has some signal/time/output-tone relationship? I dunno. But, what he offered can't even be tested, because of all the other variables involved...which is pretty much "every other part of the amp".

    Anyway...just my thoughts on that. Have fun...lol!

    Brad1

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    Last edited by Brad1; 03-05-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    'more' vacuum.


    That's better than "jumbo shrimp" or even "military intelligence"

    Bugs Bunny would say: "What a oxymaroon. What a ultra oxymaroon."


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    Last edited by Chuck H; 03-05-2018 at 03:38 PM.
    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

  12. #12
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad1 View Post
    I tell them that when a signal hits a tube, the electrons get heated and scattered from an element, outward inside the vacuum of the tube, maybe bouncing off the glass, maybe out-some then over. Then, they are collected fairly randomly by another element and sent through to the next components. It happens very quickly, but it does introduce a little bit of a distortion of the signal, which sort of "smooths" the SOUND of the signal. Each tube the signal passes through does some of that.
    Oh that's terrific!

    Any electrons bouncing off the glass have gotten way lost from the area where all the action is. No matter, that puts them squarely in my organization, the Lost Electricity Reclamation Agency. You can find us near the Veterans Tap Dance Administration, right next to the Department of Spies.

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    You should also definitely mention crystal lattice


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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    The way I see it, what's happening in a tube is an electronic interaction and not a physical or acoustic interaction. In fact, even in the case of tube microphony affecting the sound I would expect the opposite of what Nate says to be true. That is, any anomalous vibration in the bigger bottle will be of a lower frequency than the smaller bottle (you can tell this by blowing into different size bottles ). Any sound made by a tube that is NOT signal only stands to threaten the signal. Phase errors, sum/difference harmonics, etc. Therefor a tube that reacts less physically at lower frequencies will have better low end

    I totally just made all that $h!t up, but it sounds WAAAYY better than Nate's perpective.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frus View Post
    You should also definitely mention crystal lattice
    I wince every time I see that video. I bet he would too, but he get's distracted wanting a bacon lattice and tomato sandwich.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    with that do-rag, I'm thinking that Howard Dumble looks more like the "thieving pirate" than our friend Steve.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    bacon lattice and tomato sandwich.
    YAY! Not even noon here yet, and already Chuck scores...

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Just to make sure I understand the sentiment here: we have to be liberally PC unless we're insulting fat people?

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Hey, my ass is oversized. If you come up with an insult that is funny, swing away.

    Whatever it might be, I am sure my wife would work it into her repertoire.

    bacon lattice and tomato sandwich.
    Now THAT is funny.

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Well I have to admit I stole that one from a meme I saw a few years ago with Alexander's image. And no, it's not PC. But hey, there's no Italian jokes? I'm half. I've always been in the camp that funny is funny and if one thing is ok to crack on then everything is. No discrimination here.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Oh, I'm not complaining, Chuck. I thought it was pretty funny. I'm just against the PC trend that's so prevalent, and I like the idea of PC going right out the window. but we do have a prevailing PC trend here in the Lobby.

    you made me hungry when you mentioned a BLT. That's health food, you know. Lettuce and tomato.

    I still want the Ezno whoopee cushion.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Lattice and tomato.


    The whoopee cushions are now down to the last few, and she is hanging onto them fiercely.

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Dumble doesn't seem as though he's even convinced himself of his own BS, never mind anyone else. I doubt he'd make a very good wild-west snake-oil merchant. Why is the guitar world full of charlatans and false prophets?

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  24. #24
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    Why is the guitar world full of charlatans and false prophets?
    I think it's for the same reasons the rest of the world is.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    a bacon lattice and tomato sandwich.
    Was it an iceberg crystal lattice?

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  26. #26
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Bailey View Post
    Dumble doesn't seem as though he's even convinced himself of his own BS, never mind anyone else. I doubt he'd make a very good wild-west snake-oil merchant. Why is the guitar world full of charlatans and false prophets?
    *Maybe* that does not shed a very favorable light on Guitar *players*

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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