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Thread: Miniature dynamic mic pickups out of 140-160 Ohm earplug capsules

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    Miniature dynamic mic pickups out of 140-160 Ohm earplug capsules

    Hello,

    I got recently interested in building new pickup-system for my new OM acoustics. In other instruments I do have installed little ECM Oktava microphones, however due to a significant costs and cutting the new guitar's body for some on-board preamp/EQ, I would like to build a new dynamic mic-based pickup this time .....

    Being not sure of those little dynamic microphones available locally, I tried and tested few high-quality earplug capsules by Sennheiser, Nokia and others ....... the results were really impressive but only with higher coil-impedance 120-160 Ohm capsules by Samsung; Sennheisers and Nokias were only of 24-32 Ohm .....

    So this is how the story begun! And now, I am searching for some PRE-preamp circuit to get the <1mV sensitivity capsules boosted up to 20mV ........

    Does anyone experimented with such little dynamic capsules ? Any work-horse PRE-preamp circuits available ?

    Thank you for your feedback!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    Hello,

    I got recently interested in building new pickup-system for my new OM acoustics. In other instruments I do have installed little ECM Oktava microphones, however due to a significant costs and cutting the new guitar's body for some on-board preamp/EQ, I would like to build a new dynamic mic-based pickup this time .....

    Being not sure of those little dynamic microphones available locally, I tried and tested few high-quality earplug capsules by Sennheiser, Nokia and others ....... the results were really impressive but only with higher coil-impedance 120-160 Ohm capsules by Samsung; Sennheisers and Nokias were only of 24-32 Ohm .....

    So this is how the story begun! And now, I am searching for some PRE-preamp circuit to get the <1mV sensitivity capsules boosted up to 20mV ........

    Does anyone experimented with such little dynamic capsules ? Any work-horse PRE-preamp circuits available ?

    Thank you for your feedback!

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    Consider using a Shure A95U series of microphone matching transformers. Wire your dynamic capsule with two conductor shielded low impedance microphone cable with an XLR connector on the end of the cable to go into the XLR transformer input but with the transformer located at the amp high impedance input. This will minimize cable capacitance effects on high frequency response alterations and noise pickup. If noise is a problem wrap the dynamic capsule in a metal screen material that is grounded to the microphone wire ground.

    Joseph J. Rogowski

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    Member Mikheil's Avatar
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    Hi Joseph,

    Thanks for your comment and thoughts!
    Well, in-brief on what I am looking for: this should be low-voltage <9V PRE-preamp circuit with 1-2 transistors, or alternatively, one Op-amp (more expensive option!) of LT, INA, OPA, THAT, MAX series etc....... further, these two capsules should be blended and then going out by a stereo End-pin jack which might carry a second pickup's out as well .......

    There are many circuits found in the internet but I really would prefer to having some tested versions of the work-horse circuits as I do not wish to experiment with components and values etc .......

    I have built this way combo-amp copying Fender Acoustasonic preamp last year, it was just a couple of hours to wiring the circuit which is ready-to-go requiring no calibration nor variations; I can not afford to wasting time for just potentially relevant circuits, looking only for tested ones.

    Thanks!

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    I can not afford to wasting time for just potentially relevant circuits, looking only for tested ones.
    YouŽll have to search around for some commercial dynamic capsule preamp which works with 9V, and copy it, not sure somebody will custom design and, more important, develop ("waste time") such a preamp for you, just for the asking.

    Personally IŽd look for a couple such commercial preamp schematics for "inspiration" , nothing wrong with that, fire up the old Protoboard and start experimenting.

    As of:
    Op-amp (more expensive option!)
    IŽd think quite the contrary, even best Op Amps cost peanuts.
    Only caveat would be, since it seems your project will be powered by a 9V battery, that among similar possibilities you choose the less power hungry one , for best battery life (so no NE553x and similar current hungry ones).

    The beauty of Op Amps is that, at least in theory, "they are all the same" by definition, so you may get a preamp which does what you need, and replace the original 50 cent Op Amp with a high quality very low noise NASA spec one which will cost 2 bucks.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    For a low impedance, low output voltage mic you would generally avoid using an op amp as an input stage because of high noise voltage. A transformer seems so easy, but if you do not want that, then you might consider a circuit with a bipolar junction transistor front end since this device can give very low noise voltage and the noise current is not an issue with low source impedance. (Some JFETS also give low noise voltage.) http://jap.hu/electronic/micamp.html is a typical circuit. You do not need more than a gain of about 10, and so you might consider a simple two transistor circuit, although a low current op amp that can operate on a low voltage would not be too hard on the battery.

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    Thanks Juan,
    The real trouble is that all those super-quiet Op-amps (LT, INA, THAT series etc) which cost $5-10 are not available locally, ordering overseas costs far more, so no sense to look for them.....
    LM4562 and OPA2134 op-amps are the best available locally, not really expensive ($5-3) and certainly might be an option.....
    But, I am still looking the tested schematic with all the required specs......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
    For a low impedance, low output voltage mic you would generally avoid using an op amp as an input stage because of high noise voltage. A transformer seems so easy, but if you do not want that, then you might consider a circuit with a bipolar junction transistor front end since this device can give very low noise voltage and the noise current is not an issue with low source impedance. (Some JFETS also give low noise voltage.) http://jap.hu/electronic/micamp.html is a typical circuit. You do not need more than a gain of about 10, and so you might consider a simple two transistor circuit, although a low current op amp that can operate on a low voltage would not be too hard on the battery.

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
    Yes, I do hear such a comment on using bi-polar transistors repeatedly, many people suggest such inputs over using op-amps ...... I was also told to use 'common base preamp' design which potentially might has even lower noise-specs and higher gain etc......

    I also looked into old Hi-Fi amps (high-class Soviet audio) and their schematics and made several interesting cuttings from the circuits, however they all use dual-supply of 18-22 V and I have no idea on how to modify it to 3-4 v .......

    Attached are few examples of those recommended circuits, what would be better to look for ?

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Try the single transistor one.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Try the single transistor one.


    Common-base vs Common-Emitter mic preamp circuits: real and visible values for <1mV sensitivity dynamic mic inputs ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    Common-base vs Common-Emitter mic preamp circuits: real and visible values for <1mV sensitivity dynamic mic inputs ??
    I see no reason to use common base. Dynamic microphones are expected to give better frequency response when they look into an impedance a few times larger than their output impedance rather than loading them down with a lower impedance. Signal to noise should be somewhat better also. A simple single transistor circuit might have more gain than you want with a bypassed emitter resistor, but you can always unbypass part or all of it to give some feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
    I see no reason to use common base. Dynamic microphones are expected to give better frequency response when they look into an impedance a few times larger than their output impedance rather than loading them down with a lower impedance. Signal to noise should be somewhat better also. A simple single transistor circuit might have more gain than you want with a bypassed emitter resistor, but you can always unbypass part or all of it to give some feedback.
    Thanks, Mike!
    Sure, I know that low-impedance dynamic input should have around 10 times higher impedance, so it should not be less that 2.5-3 kOhm ...... however, 200 Ohm dynamic mics may perform well plugged into high-impedance inputs, as an example, in my actual guitar I have ECM Oktava mic with 250 Ohm impedance (with miniature audio-transformer) which is wired to B-Band on-board preamp/EQ with 10 mOhm input impedance and all works just superb........

    Well, I have some 1, 2, and 3 bipolar NPN transistor base circuits too and I am preparing to build and test few circuits at once .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Sulzer View Post
    because of high noise voltage. A transformer seems so easy,

    Mike,

    I would like to ask on Audio transformers ......

    I have one little mic transformer of Oktava-5 mic which is very small around 1x2 cm, it has 6 pins (see on to attached wiring image); I do not remember precisely but it has around 600 Ohm coil-impedance and pin-outs in the centers of coils ......
    This tiny transformer has two contact input from the side of microphone and balanced 3-contact out which I use as 2-contact out for guitar's preamp......

    Would such ECM mic transformer work with dynamic capsule ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    Would such ECM mic transformer work with dynamic capsule ?
    I think it would work. Possibly, the voltage step up might not be quite as high as you would like, but try it and see.

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    Dear All,

    Just finished with circuit and testing it with capsules, the result is phenomenal! I was thinking it might only potentially be possible...... what I mean: I was hoping that these dynamic capsules might function not only as mics capturing sound waves but also capturing vibration by their metallic housing, and, Yes, they do both superb ......

    More details:

    1. Noise - far low than Zero
    2. Gain - it really is too much, 1V or even more
    3. THD - far low than Zero

    I only need to cut some LF and raise Highs little bit ..... input and output caps should be replaced to <1 mF to cut Bass, but I do not know how to add more highs...

    Any thoughts ?
    Thank you!

    Schematic here:



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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Those are earphone capsules, not real microphones.

    You have what you have and be grateful for that, you canŽt boost highs which were never there to begin with.

    I guess your guitar also use Piezos under the bridge, which tend to have way too much Highs, a judicious mix of both pickup outputs will give you a very balanced end result.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Those are earphone capsules, not real microphones.

    You have what you have and be grateful for that, you canŽt boost highs which were never there to begin with.

    I guess your guitar also use Piezos under the bridge, which tend to have way too much Highs, a judicious mix of both pickup outputs will give you a very balanced end result.

    Piezo: I have tested and then removed all type of piezo elements few years back, I do not use piezos anymore, they ruin the guitar's overall sound .......... however, piezo does not really sound bad in my ukulele, they sound OK with nylon strings, double-basses etc.....

    Well, I am sure after cutting LF withing this circuit, then it should be possible to add more highs with external EQ, isn't it ?

    Any more ideas on how to add more Highs in this circuit ?

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    <buzzkill>
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    Thank you for your feedback!
    SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, har, har. Ahem. Excuse me.

    I fear that if used for live amplification, your setup may be prone to acoustic feedback.
    Because:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    ...these dynamic capsules might function not only as mics capturing sound waves but also capturing vibration by their metallic housing,
    </buzzkill>

    Limiting the bass frequencies with smaller coupling caps (as you noted) should help (I think).
    And if Fahey sez its OK, its probably OK.

    - rb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    Piezo: I have tested and then removed all type of piezo elements few years back, I do not use piezos anymore, they ruin the guitar's overall sound .......... however, piezo does not really sound bad in my ukulele, they sound OK with nylon strings, double-basses etc.....

    Well, I am sure after cutting LF withing this circuit, then it should be possible to add more highs with external EQ, isn't it ?

    Any more ideas on how to add more Highs in this circuit ?
    To get the best response from piezo elements you need to use a high impedance (3M ohm to 5M ohm) active buffer close to the piezo element to eliminate cable capacitance and other external loading.

    Joseph J. Rogowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbsailor View Post
    To get the best response from piezo elements you need to use a high impedance (3M ohm to 5M ohm) active buffer close to the piezo element to eliminate cable capacitance and other external loading.

    Joseph J. Rogowski

    Yes, I used all those piezo-elements with B-Band on-board preamp/EQ (10 mOhm input impedance)......
    I find the piezo pickup to be just the compromise for steel-string acoustics, personally I would go for the worst mic-preamp rather than the best piezo......

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    I fear that if used for live amplification, your setup may be prone to acoustic feedback.


    Yes, attaching to the sound-board makes the capsules more prone to feedback, this technique requires a very special type of surface mounting ...... as an alternative, placing some thin buffer-material in-between the capsule and guitar's sound-board might help someway, OR, housing the capsule into such buffer-material cylinder and then attaching this cylinder to the guitar's top ........

    If am able to find the best way of how to attach the capsule to guitar's top, I will get the most advanced acoustic guitar pickup ever ...... and, even better if getting higher-impedance capsules of 200-300 Ohm .......

    Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts!

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    Last edited by Mikheil; 06-19-2018 at 03:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikheil View Post
    If am able to find the best way of how to attach the capsule to guitar's top, I will get the most advanced acoustic guitar pickup ever ......
    Perhaps, but... surface-mounted microphones have been around for a long time....

    Have you heard of MEMS (Micro-Electrical-Mechanical Systems) microphones?
    Here's a manufacturer's tutorial: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resour...DM00103199.pdf

    Here's a commercial product: http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigacousticstage/
    I've got one of these guys. I don't play out much, but have used it three times so far, in noisy dance environments. So far, so good.

    -rb

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Perhaps, but... surface-mounted microphones have been around for a long time....

    Have you heard of MEMS (Micro-Electrical-Mechanical Systems) microphones?
    Here's a manufacturer's tutorial: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resour...DM00103199.pdf

    Here's a commercial product: http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigacousticstage/
    I've got one of these guys. I don't play out much, but have used it three times so far, in noisy dance environments. So far, so good.

    -rb


    Thanks! Yes I am aware of MEMS, moreover, regularly checking their news every year since 2012; however, MENS considered a new type of mics and expected to totally replace ECM on the market do not or very rarely give Frequency Response specs on their mics which are somewhere 100-10000 Hz, SNR is over 60 dB etc...... Knowles, the manufacturer has BOOM Series mics with better characteristics and sold for over $50 ......
    The new IKmultimedia product is the first guitar system built on MEMS technology but I do not know which real guitar performer uses them .....
    I do not think that MEMS compete where the true audio specs are required ...........

    Dozens of pickup systems are on the market today but the most even very expensive unit might be disappointing, only personal experience makes you think right and able to build something for $10 that would win over some $200 worth manufactured gear....... but, having one quality little mic is a must because the sound begins with mics only.....

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    I myself need to catch up on learning about MEMS mics & pickups. For others who are also behind the times, here's an article from way back in 2009: http://www.analog.com/en/analog-dial...c-pickups.html

    Yes, this is still a developing technology with little track record. As with any new toy, I expect that performance will improve, while prices will decline. Currently, the iRig unit's MSRP is $100, but you can find them for $70.

    I do not want to discourage your experiments using earbuds as mics. I do question whether they will be "the most advanced acoustic guitar pickup ever." Which, I'm guessing, was a tongue-in-cheek assertion anyways....

    Have fun,
    -rb

    Notes:
    - You probably wouldn't want the frequency response of a guitar mic to go below 100 Hz; you'd just have to add a rumble filter.
    - I knew Rick Turner had mentioned accelerometers somewhere here awhile ago. Found a post- he sez the issue with soundboard transducers in general is "location, location, location." http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...l=1#post191356

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    Last edited by rjb; 06-20-2018 at 05:04 PM. Reason: spellcheck override: accelerometers
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjb View Post
    Yes, this is still a developing technology with little track record. As with any new toy, I expect that performance will improve, while prices will decline. Currently, the iRig unit's MSRP is $100, but you can find them for $70.

    I do not want to discourage your experiments using earbuds as mics. I do question whether they will be "[COLOR=#3E3E3E]the most advanced acoustic guitar pickup ever." Which, I'm guessing, was a tongue-in-cheek assertion anyways....

    Thanks!, Most of the piezo-elements cost around few cents, however some manufactured piezo-pickups are sold for over 100 ......
    'The most advanced pickups' and all other notes should be considered from the local point view only due to a simple lack of almost everything related to steel-string acoustics and its gear, locally you will not find neither a worth instrument nor electronics to purchase, so I consider all these very basic wins as most-advanced ..... :-) otherwise such devices purchased overseas would cost far over ...... I have purchased new acoustics online which is a budget-category instrument but locally it definitely might be considered as high-budget guitar ...... moreover, I am expecting the guitar to arrive CITES permit to be issued which is a mandatory to legally transport the instrument out of EU ...... our planet is called Earth but, depending on geography, living is very different everywhere and quite often it hardly can be called as living on the same planet....... :-)

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    It should certainly be interesting to hear that these dynamic capsules can be easily wired in-series as piezo-discs are wired in-parallel ...... This way you get higher impedance thus getting higher output as well as several mic-pickups installed at different spots of the instrument's top !

    I had never experimented on that thinking of its anti-scientific nature, never heard of wiring dynamic microphones in-series, however, these earplug dynamic capsules work just great wired in-series.

    Another interesting fact is that there might be NO need to install any pre-preamp electronics in to the guitar's body, the low-impedance <1 mV signal from the dynamic capsules easily travels through unbalanced guitar cables - 4M guitar-preamp and 4M preamp-amp - over 8 M in total.

    However, good shielding and proper grounding must be controlled at every step of assembling and installation.

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    Last edited by Mikheil; 06-20-2018 at 11:02 AM.

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