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Thread: Im considering sacrilege... DI processor/SansAmp?

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Im considering sacrilege... DI processor/SansAmp?

    So... Ive been a tube amp guy for nearly 50 years... but for a decade or so Ive been using smaller and smaller gear. Lately Ive been using a 1x12 20 watt EL84 combo mostly for gigs. But Im getting old and tiring of dragging even that around after a heart attack last year. Im almost always miked. Last week my bass player (who is at least 10 years younger than me, lol) had enough and DIed a Bass SansAmp. Sounded fine. (The PA is triamped with subs and we have 4 15 monitors). So the last couple of gigs he just plugs in a small pedal board with the SansAmp on it. I find myself thinking... damn my back hurts... I wish I could just do that and sound that good. . Heres the rub.. Ive never used a solid state rig I liked.. especially processors and bass, of course, is an entirely different animal. BUT I am aware that technology is improving all of the time. I loath to go to GC and try things out. 12 year old idiot salesman syndrome just drives me nuts. At least for now I would like to try a small box DI amp that I can plug my existing pedal board into that sounds REASONABLY like my 2 channel tube amp.... maybe consider an all in one PROCESSOR TYPE unit later. I see guys traveling to gigs when Im flying all of the time just bringing a guitar and a DI unit it a case. Not sure what they are using exactly. There was a time I used two amps (Fender clean and Marshall dirty) with an a/b switch. Now I just use a 2 channel amp with an extra tube in the gain channel. I would need the SansAmp to work something like that. Im using the name SansAmp in a generic sense. I didnt like the one I tried a decade ago. It was ok clean but the drive was plastic as hell.
    Any suggestions?

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    How about modelling your tube amps? Some discussion on that at TAG http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30690

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    Don't have any specific gear to recommend, but my opinion on modelers is that you have to be willing to tinker a bit with them if you want to get a very specific sound. Often there are EQ parameters that can be front end, midamp, power amp, or post speakers that you use to shape the sound. Compression (especially multiband) would probably also be helpful in getting the sound you want.

    Also, if you narrow down the search to a few particular models, watch the used section on guitarcenter.com. They have a 45 day return policy so you could buy something and give it a really thorough going through and if you don't like it you are only out the shipping, which should be pretty low for an effects processor.

    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdf64 View Post
    How about modelling your tube amps? Some discussion on that at TAG http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30690
    Kemper or Fractal for high grade rack gear, otherwise here you can find something simpler:
    https://www.two-notes.com/en/torpedo-cab

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    You should give the Sans Amp Classic a second opportunity.
    They actually sound quite acceptable but most people use them *wrong* (same with zillion mode floor modelers): these are NOT distortion pedals and MUST NOT be plugged into a regular guitar input, what most do.

    They deliver a "fully cooked and ready to eat" sound, which is destroyed if passing through the strong built-in EQ (specially brutal treble boost) found in Guitar amps, they are meant to go straight into Recording or PA mixers or a PC (where they do a credible job) or, for live use, into a **flat** amplifier such as Tech 21 Power Engine

    http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/po...rengine60.html

    If you dare to builde something, Id suggest this: the pedalbuilding guys (GGG, etc.) have published the Sans Amp project which cvan be built in a couple evenings, they even offer an etched and drilled PCB.

    The basic concept is simple, but is complicated by the zillion switchable options which make its guts a spaghetti bowl (4 rotary or sliding switches offering 3 or 4 different options each).
    Different amps, gain settings, cabinet type, even microphone angle

    I suggest you build *two* boards, one *fixed* Blackface type, NO mode switches, just jumper the settings you like, and another "Marshally" one, same thing, then you switch between them, period.

    Basically "your old setup inside a pedal box"

    And then go straight into PA or if you wish build a small ultralight combo (for home practice) with a 15/25W SS amp (LM1875 or similar) driving a MOD10-50 speaker which is quite light and inside a 12" x 12" x 10" cube cabinet made out of 3/8" plywood ... or go wild and use an EBay sourced 40/70W Class D amp with built in SMPS .... featherlight combo still suitable for Club work on its own.

    EDIT: Im finishing today a similar system for a customer, to be delivered tomorrow.

    Twice as large as I suggested above: 100W and 2 x 10" speakers , but inside the thin plywood cabinet, built for a Metalhead/Punk who wants to travel light and yet be heard alongside a loud drummer.

    Ill post a couple pictures when I finish it, I guess tonight.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    This is a joke Olddawg.
    The joke is, It sounds like you need to retire!
    Maybe carry them a CD of you music to pop in the amp PA!
    Modeler pedal amp? IMO Sacrilege for sure!
    YMMV,
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 06-25-2018 at 06:54 PM.
    When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. WILL ROGERS

    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    YMMV
    http://www.tech21nyc.com/halloffame/

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    That was your IMO, and my post was mine.
    Like I said, the CD in a boom box, or blue tooth to an I-phone to the PA, would be easiest.
    That way you don't have to carry that big heavy 6 pound SG guitar either!
    If a EL84 amp is to heavy to get on stage, it might be time to play from the barcalounger!
    Just my 2 cents!
    Tubes forever!
    T
    **He said it might be sacrilege, I was just agreeing with him!

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    When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging. WILL ROGERS

    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    You should give the Sans Amp Classic a second opportunity.
    They actually sound quite acceptable but most people use them *wrong* (same with zillion mode floor modelers): these are NOT distortion pedals and MUST NOT be plugged into a regular guitar input, what most do.

    They deliver a "fully cooked and ready to eat" sound, which is destroyed if passing through the strong built-in EQ (specially brutal treble boost) found in Guitar amps, they are meant to go straight into Recording or PA mixers or a PC (where they do a credible job) or, for live use, into a **flat** amplifier such as Tech 21 Power Engine

    http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/po...rengine60.html

    If you dare to builde something, Id suggest this: the pedalbuilding guys (GGG, etc.) have published the Sans Amp project which cvan be built in a couple evenings, they even offer an etched and drilled PCB.

    The basic concept is simple, but is complicated by the zillion switchable options which make its guts a spaghetti bowl (4 rotary or sliding switches offering 3 or 4 different options each).
    Different amps, gain settings, cabinet type, even microphone angle

    I suggest you build *two* boards, one *fixed* Blackface type, NO mode switches, just jumper the settings you like, and another "Marshally" one, same thing, then you switch between them, period.

    Basically "your old setup inside a pedal box"

    And then go straight into PA or if you wish build a small ultralight combo (for home practice) with a 15/25W SS amp (LM1875 or similar) driving a MOD10-50 speaker which is quite light and inside a 12" x 12" x 10" cube cabinet made out of 3/8" plywood ... or go wild and use an EBay sourced 40/70W Class D amp with built in SMPS .... featherlight combo still suitable for Club work on its own.

    EDIT: Im finishing today a similar system for a customer, to be delivered tomorrow.

    Twice as large as I suggested above: 100W and 2 x 10" speakers , but inside the thin plywood cabinet, built for a Metalhead/Punk who wants to travel light and yet be heard alongside a loud drummer.

    Ill post a couple pictures when I finish it, I guess tonight.
    Thanks Juan.. I value your input. I was thinking of going that route. I've never been satisfied with going direct but honestly I didn't spend a lot of time doing it. Many gigs, especially casinos require that you DI. I've heard people sound pretty good doing it honestly. I plan on using an XLR into a board channel line level and flat. For a start I was going to just try my existing pedal board and a cheap ART 12AX7 preamp/DI box. But a SansAmp would probably act more like a real amp.

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    Last edited by olddawg; 06-25-2018 at 10:01 PM.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    That was your IMO, and my post was mine.
    Like I said, the CD in a boom box, or blue tooth to an I-phone to the PA, would be easiest.
    That way you don't have to carry that big heavy 6 pound SG guitar either!
    If a EL84 amp is to heavy to get on stage, it might be time to play from the barcalounger!


    Just my 2 cents!
    Tubes forever!
    T
    **He said it might be sacrilege, I was just agreeing with him!
    LMAO... it's funny how life works. When I was young I had a crew moving a ton of gear. Now that I'm old I make the joke when people ask me if I play... I say no, I just move equipment... and I do it at least once a week. Honestly... I mostly play a Les Paul. I normally play 4 sets. That is still fun. But the loading the truck, unloading the truck, setting up, having the right footprint on stage, tearing down, loading then unloading the truck is the issue. What happens between my house and the damn stage is the issue. It's painful and time consuming. Just showing up with a couple of guitars and simply plugging a small whatsit on my pedal board into a PA channel is sounding more and more attractive. Sometimes I wonder if it's just an ego thing? My drummer calls my other guitarist's rig "The Starship Enterprise" it's so large and unnecessary. Lol!

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    FWIW: I carry a Sansamp GT2 all of the time, in case my rig goes down. I'm not going to say it sounds as good as a nice tube rig, but it's plenty acceptable and fits in a guitar case.

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    Yeah, well, you know, thats just, like, your opinion, man.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I've been penciling a "preamp" that's actually a full amp, complete with push/pull power amp using 6ak6's for a couple of watts into a reactive attenuator feeding a speaker emulator. It could be used as a two watt amp for home practice or recording with a mic or plugged straight into a mixing board. And I expect it to sound like a tube guitar amp because it IS a tube guitar amp. I got the idea after hearing sound samples of a 6ak6 5e3 someone made. It sounded LIKE A GUITAR AMP! Distinctly NOT like those little *oonlight things that use a single 12au7 in self split operation So I'm throwing this idea on the table. I managed a pretty good circuit for the reactive attenuator and speaker emulation, though the emulator hasn't been ear tested. I'm happy to share those circuits. I'll need to draw it up on the poot for upload since it's just in pencil now.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Chuck, why don't you look up the Fender Princeton Recording Amp. Might hold some interest.

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    FWIW: I carry a Sansamp GT2 all of the time, in case my rig goes down. I'm not going to say it sounds as good as a nice tube rig, but it's plenty acceptable and fits in a guitar case.
    I've always wondered if you would need two. One set up for the Marshall(ish) sound and one set up for a Fender(ish) clean sound and an A/B switch. They are not 2 Channel the foot switch is just a bypass. Bypass would just put the guitar straight into the board. And... the other issue is volume boosting for lead solos. It was never a problem with a sound man out front with a snake. Nowadays I have an Weber speaker attenuator that I can turn off and on with a foot switch so I can get on top of the mix with the same tone clean or dirty.

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Most of the time, I only use one channel. If I want to clean it up a bit, I just back off the guitar volume. That said, I'm well aware that this doesn't work for everyone- depending on what kind or kinds of music you play. Oh, and we do have a sound man to bump solos, so that isn't a concern either.

    Edit: I should add that, on the rare occasion I'm gigging without a sound man, I just stick a pedal in front of the rig for a boost. I run more volume than gain. In other words, I don't so much use it for distortion, it's more for a volume/solo boost.

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    Last edited by The Dude; 06-26-2018 at 05:04 AM.
    Yeah, well, you know, thats just, like, your opinion, man.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Most of the time, I only use one channel. If I want to clean it up a bit, I just back off the guitar volume. That said, I'm well aware that this doesn't work for everyone- depending on what kind or kinds of music you play. Oh, and we do have a sound man to bump solos, so that isn't a concern either.

    Edit: I should add that, on the rare occasion I'm gigging without a sound man, I just stick a pedal in front of the rig for a boost. I run more volume than gain. In other words, I don't so much use it for distortion, it's more for a volume/solo boost.
    Interesting how this does/doesnt work. I have to be very careful with my pedal dance. If I accidentally use the boost pedal or even a dirt box on the clean channel it will really pop the volume because of the clean overhead... especially with certain guitars. I generally use the clean channel for clean. Use the same pedals on the dirty channel there is little difference in apparent volume with a boost or a dirt box because of the different preamp architecture. It just gets dirtier and the saturation clamps it. So I used a footswitch resistive attenuator in the effects loop for a while... then started using the Weber speaker attenuator which works better. I imagine you could use a footswitch resistive attenuator on the SansAmp output. Most people would probably use a volume pedal. I prefer a set ratio independent of the master volume.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    I've always wondered if you would need two.One set up for the Marshall(ish) sound and one set up for a Fender(ish) clean sound and an A/B switch. They are not 2 Channel the foot switch is just a bypass. Bypass would just put the guitar straight into the board.
    Thats exactly what I suggested earlier:
    I suggest you build *two* boards, one *fixed* Blackface type, NO mode switches, just jumper the settings you like, and another "Marshally" one, same thing, then you switch between them, period.

    Basically "your old setup inside a pedal box"
    And... the other issue is volume boosting for lead solos.
    You can put the boost pedal *only* in series with the high gain one, not "in series with everything"

    I suggested self building 2 "preset/dedicated" boards and if you get into it, also the "Boost" and the "A/B Switcher" because its a "doable" project but of course all elements: 2 Sans Amp + 1 Clean Booster + 1 A/B Switcher (+ 9V power supply and some kind of pedalboard) can all be bought over the counter and assembled in a couple hours.

    FWIW this is the Tonepad project.
    The very well made PCB costs $11 each.
    Switch wiring is a mess, you have to source and mount the switches yadda yadda yadda, but I ssuggest you *fixed* wire what you need.

    In fact, to give it a try, buy and build *one* , fixed wire it for the Marshally sound which they call "Mid Gain" (the hig gain one is over the top) , no boost, no A/B switching, just the bare board on the table, and test that into a clean SS amp and guitar speaker or even through the loop return of an SS combo.

    Is it bearable? ... go ahead; ... unbearable? ... try other path.

    Other options:

    maybe you can find one of those Crate thingies, dont remember the name but they were housed in a cheesy "Car Amp" finned aluminum enclosure , weight less than 2 pounds, 2 x 75W or 150W bridged and the built-in preamp was quite good.

    Single channel, not footswitchable, but you might set it for a "just on the edge" light crunch and blast it with some good dirt pedal.
    Just by itself it had good clean and mid gain sound whic are the important ones.

    Or try one of those Quilter thingies.
    Theres a very light combo, boasts of unreal 200W but since it drives an inefficient (for Guitar) Eminence Alpha or Beta 8" speaker, which is actually a PA speaker, sso in practice its equivalent to a normal 50/60W 1 x 12" amp.

    Not bad for a shoebox sized combo.

    EDIT: forgot the Tonepad Sansamp GT2 clone link:
    http://www.tonepad.com/project.asp?id=22

    this is the ready made board:

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    Last edited by J M Fahey; 06-26-2018 at 07:04 PM.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Old Timer daz's Avatar
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    Do it. Trust me, tube amps are no longer the only answer. Just so you know where i'm coming from, i started gigging in the 70's and stopped a few years back, but i spent a lot of years and used a LOT of tube amps live and i'm intimately familiar with live guitar tone. I was a complete tube snob and never met a SS amp of any kind i would ever consider using in place of tubes. My style is old school where i use a driven amp and use my guitar volume and controls to go clean to dirt and get all my sounds from the guitar and my hands. And i require a amp to be very response and it the touch ain't there i'm OUT.

    That said, all i have used not for 6 years are modelers. 3 of them to date and no, they weren't all perfect and like tube amps each had thier issues. Till my latest, a katana artist. Like i said i no longer play out, but i DO still jam with friends. The best way i can explain this modeler is the very best tube amps i had may have had one advantage...***at times* i have had tones when the room was just right and all the starts lined up that was incredible. On the other hand the katana sound as good or better the vast majority of the time and ALWAYS WORKS BETTER. ALWAYS. What i mean by works better is in a live setting it just does everything right. Forget amazing tone for just a second and consider what is the most important thing live....a tone that does everything you ask of it, sits perfectly in the mix, sounds full balanced and clear with no peaks and valleys, cleans up to a great clean tone and responds to your playing. All to the point that you find yourself just playing all nite and not thinking about your tone and whats not happening with it, something i did most every nite with even my best tube amps. It simply WORKS ! And while you may not have those magic nites where the tone is ungodly that happens once in a blue moon and only with the best tube amps, it will sound fantastic pretty much every nite. And that's another bonus....they are consistent sounding from room to room, nite to nite. Forget about the other bonus' like built in effects, light weight, no tubes to go down, many having built in tuners, etc etc.

    And finally let me tell you the price you will pay for all this and the reason there are still some that won't admit they have finally arrived. That being they are not plug and play if tone is very important to you. You guys here are all amp builders/techs and you will understand this....a good tube amp was designed by someone who basically created a amp sound that there when you plug in. The tone is built into the circuit. There are tone shaping components all throughout the circuit from beginning to end, and what you get when you plug in is that designer;s idea of what great tone is with a few knobs that really are just there to fine tune that tone to the room and to your guitar and ear. Tuning then is a 1 minute job and your tone is 99% of the way to the best u will get from that amp. Modelers on the other hand are liek an unfinished amp circuit with knobs and deep editing that in effect is the equivalent to designing of the circuit. In other words, those who write them off never speant the time to get the absolute best sound out of it or weren't able to just like some amp designers aren't great and cratering a killer circuit that doesn't just sound great but WORKS great. Heres my point....alll the tone and feel and touch, all the things that you think are only great in tube amps ARE there in some modelers/ss amps. I say SOME because just like tube amps there are plenty of crappy ones. But a good modeler is capable of greatness IF you delve in deep and spend a lot of time, and that is the price you pay. I spend a few months getting the best from my katana and in the PC editor where you can deeply tweak it i ended up with a EQ in front of the model and one at the output because i am aware of how differently EQs work pre and post distortion. It took time but i now have tone that just works to perfection live and sounds fantastic. As close to perfection as i have ever had in a band mix.

    But if you don't have that designer's ear to where you not only know what you want but know how to get it with things like pre and post EQ as described, you may end up back with tubes. It IS in there tho. You have to get a right one just like with a tube amp, but it's there for you to find if you can/will. I don't know about that sans amp, as not sure they have much deep editing if any. So in that case you may end up buying a number of devices like that b4 finding a great one same as the ritual you go thru with tube amps. But a good modeler with deep editing is more than capable of getting you everything a tube amp gave you and much much more. I will never again be a tube amp guy for one simple reason....i have been happier with my tone since using modelers than i ever was with tube amps because they are capable of being as good while being FAR more consistently good and having a list of other advantages. I wish you could walk in my shoes for a bit. You'd become a believer. And trust me....i am not easily pleased as tone goes.

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    Olddawg, if you're still watching this thread, you might consider one of Kingsley's products. They're real tube preamps in tiny stomp boxes. Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3rgRE6VHcI

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