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Thread: 51 split coil P Bass pickup

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    51 split coil P Bass pickup

    Just making one split coil. Like to hear your opinions how hot to wind it?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/85y2g776wn...80818.jpg?dl=0

    My goal is a bit thicker sound than original, but retain single coil character as much as possible. And of course noisless.
    It has 20 mm Alnico 5 rods. AWG 42, and the coil space is 13 mm. Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).
    I wound once one to ca. 7 kΩ (2x 3,5 kΩ) . It was ok, but kind of lame.
    Now I going to try more turns. What would be max turns ? My first intention is 8-9 kΩ. Is over 10 kΩ too muddy?

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 06:29 AM.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Just making one split coil. Like to hear your opinions how hot to wind it?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/85y2g776wn...80818.jpg?dl=0

    My goal is a bit thicker sound than original, but retain single coil character as much as possible. And of course noisless.
    It has 20 mm Alnico 5 rods. AWG 42, and the coil space is 13 mm. Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).
    I wound once one to ca. 7 kΩ (2x 3,5 kΩ) . It was ok, but kind of lame.
    Now I going to try more turns. What would be max turns ? My first intention is 8-9 kΩ. Is over 10 kΩ too muddy?
    The split Precision p'up is 2x10,000 turns of #42. As yours is significantly smaller, I'd say see if you can fit 9-10,000 turn of #43 as a starting point.

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    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak View Post
    The split Precision p'up is 2x10,000 turns of #42. As yours is significantly smaller, I'd say see if you can fit 9-10,000 turn of #43 as a starting point.
    Well, pre '57 and post '57 P pickups are totally different animals. As I wrote, I've made one 51-type split coil at 7 kΩ total, AWG 42. Can't remember the turns, but that amount of AWG 42 fits easily, no need to use AWG 43.
    51-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/2/6/1...ge_default.jpg
    57-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/4/6/4...ox_default.jpg

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 10:24 AM.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Well, pre '57 and post '57 P pickups are totally different animals. As I wrote, I've made one 51-type split coil at 7 kΩ total, AWG 42. Can't remember the turns, but that amount of AWG 42 fits easily, no need to use AWG 43.
    51-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/2/6/1...ge_default.jpg
    57-type split coil is like this: http://jlguitars.eu/shop/img/p/4/6/4...ox_default.jpg
    Great, then.

    BTW, why are you talking DC readings...? Do you wind to DC readings?

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    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak View Post
    Great, then.

    BTW, why are you talking DC readings...? Do you wind to DC readings?
    Sorry don't quite understand why you ask. If I rewind a PU which DCR is documented 7 kΩ, then my coal is that. If I know the turns are 10000, I wind it to 10000 turns.
    If you wonder how to turn to a certain DCR value. I wind some thousand turns and then scrape the wire's insulation and measure. And there you can calculate how many turns is needed to get the right DCR value.
    For example , a 51 PU : (values from memory) one turn is ca. 14 cm, and AWG 42 DCR is ca. 5,3 Ω/ meter. So 1000 turns on that PU is ca. 750 Ω.

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    Higher than normal to compensate possible hi end loss (because of hotter wind).
    What makes you assume that a higher coil would reproduce more highs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    What makes you assume that a higher coil would reproduce more highs?
    That's what I heard and read. Like:
    https://sites.google.com/site/liamsr...-pickup-design
    And real PUs. Like Lundgren hot P PU. 16 kΩ, 2-3 mm higher frame (=thinner coil). No muddiness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    That's what I heard and read. Like:
    https://sites.google.com/site/liamsr...-pickup-design
    And real PUs. Like Lundgren hot P PU. 16 kΩ, 2-3 mm higher frame (=thinner coil). No muddiness.
    There is no physical justification for such claim. And if listening comparisons seem to confirm it, I suspect that the wider and shorter coil had higher inductance. Whenever evaluating the sonic influence of a change in dimensions or other parameter it is essential to wire/select the samples to be compared for identical inductivity.
    Otherwise chances are that you are primarily hearing the effect of the different inductances.

    If the differently shaped coils to be compared have the same number of turns and the same cores/magnets/wire size, the thinner and longer coil will have less inductance, somewhat higher capacitance and most of all less output with respect to the shorter and wider coil.

    Your coil height of 13mm doesn't seem to be extraordinary, so the effects won't be too strong depending on what other size you are comparing to.

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 06-28-2018 at 03:31 PM.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    If I rewind a PU which DCR is documented 7 kΩ
    That's what I'm asking:do you accept to rewind a p'up when all you've got is a DC reading?

    Because unless is a relatively known design, so I can refer to my fellow winder's factual knowledge of the said p'up, I wouldn't even expect to be nowhere near, let alone "nail it", tone-wise, just by matching a DC reading.

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    The DCR is just a measure of the total length of wire in a coil for a given/known wire gauge. The direct effect of the DCR on frequency response (i.e. resonance Q) is rather weak. The dominant factors for frequency response are inductance and (cable) capacitance as well as the resistance values of the instrument's control pots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    There is no physical justification for such claim. And if listening comparisons seem to confirm it, I suspect that the wider and shorter coil had higher inductance. Whenever evaluating the sonic influence of a change in dimensions or other parameter it is essential to wire/select the samples to be compared for identical inductivity.
    Otherwise chances are that you are primarily hearing the effect of the different inductances.

    If the differently shaped coils to be compared have the same number of turns and the same cores/magnets/wire size, the thinner and longer coil will have less inductance, somewhat higher capacitance and most of all less output with respect to the shorter and wider coil.

    Your coil height of 13mm doesn't seem to be extraordinary, so the effects won't be too strong depending on what other size you are comparing to.
    HI
    Ok. Thanks. If you say so.
    If I wind the same turns count on a wider and shorter coil or thinner and longer coil, the latter has less inductance, which leads I get more treble?
    Yes 13 mm isn't much more, but it might be enough. Can't find now the original '51 PU height, but I think it is total 1/2 ". So I think 13 mm is some 3 mm more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak View Post
    That's what I'm asking:do you accept to rewind a p'up when all you've got is a DC reading?

    Because unless is a relatively known design, so I can refer to my fellow winder's factual knowledge of the said p'up, I wouldn't even expect to be nowhere near, let alone "nail it", tone-wise, just by matching a DC reading.
    Don't quite follow. If I have a broken Strat PU, and I know the DCR. Say it is (or was) 5,6 kΩ/ AWG 42. Then what I'm doing wrong if I wind it to 5,6 kΩ with same type AWG 42?

    I can measure PU's inductance, capacitance, magnetic flux density (tesla/gauss), DCR . I have for example an oscilloscope, function generator and this .https://www.amazon.com/Labs-DE-5000-.../dp/B005EMT8PC

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 05:41 PM.

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    If I wind the same turns count on a wider and shorter coil or thinner and longer coil, the latter has less inductance, which leads I get more treble?
    Everything else being equal, yes. But the difference will not be dramatic. You might get a reduction of inductance by 10% to 20%, meaning a resonant frequency higher by 5% to 10%. But alternatively you could reduce your turns count on the wider and shorter coil for the same treble increase and still get more output, because this coil places the turns closer to the strings.

    Yes 13 mm isn't much more, but it might be enough. Can't find now the original '51 PU height, but I think it is total 1/2 ". So I think 13 mm is some 3 mm more.
    Actually 13mm is very close to 1/2 inch (12,7mm).

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 06-28-2018 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Everything else being equal, yes. But the difference will not be dramatic. You might get a reduction of inductance by 10% to 20%, meaning a resonant frequency higher by 5% to 10%. But alternatively you could reduce your turns count on the wider and shorter coil for the same treble increase and still get more output, because this coil places the turns closer to the strings.
    Ok. Thanks. 10 % higher f res may be enough. I made it with 20 mm mags cause I already have those.



    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Actually 13mm is very close to 1/2 inch (12,7mm).
    I mean the whole PU. If I remember it right the magnets were 1/2" long. The flatworks are a few mm. Coil's height is then ca. 10 mm.

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 10:59 PM.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Ok. Thanks. 10 % higher f res may be enough. I made it with 20 mm mags cause I already have those.


    I mean the whole PU. If I remember it right the magnets were 1/2" long. The flatworks are a few mm. Coils height is then ca. 10mm.
    When you specify 20mm you are talking overall length?
    When talking magnet height, you only count the magnet height between the flats.
    That height area is what you are talking about concerning brightness.
    I too agree 1/2 inch is enough between the flats.
    I also never hear you say what the magnet diameter is.
    Most of us prefer using inches, instead of MM, due to all the old published data, and the use of bobbin calculating software.
    So when using data for pickup bobbin cores, use length, width, height between the flats, & flange diameter.
    AC readings are great, but lots of basic hobby winders, use turns, and DCR, because of tools they have available.

    T
    ** Hopefully this can be a place for all degree of pickup builders, regardless of the expertise, & technical tools they have available!

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    Last edited by big_teee; 06-28-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    When you specify 20mm you are talking overall length?
    When talking magnet height, you only count the magnet height between the flats.
    That height area is what you are talking about concerning brightness.
    I too agree 1/2 inch is enough between the flats.
    I also never hear you say what the magnet diameter is.
    Most of us prefer using inches, instead of MM, due to all the old published data, and the use of bobbin calculating software.
    So when using data for pickup bobbin cores, use length, width, height between the flats, & flange diameter.
    AC readings are great, but lots of basic hobby winders, use turns, and DCR, because of tools they have available.

    T
    ** Hopefully this can be a place for all degree of pickup builders, regardless of the expertise, & technical tools they have available!
    Yes, mags total length is 20 mm . Mag diameter is 5 mm.
    I prefer to use SI units, metric, cause that is what has agreed many decades ago (for ex. USA 1866, but not too much in use). Well I think it is polite to accept the units the writer uses. If you care only turns and DCR, you can easily ignore the other measurements.
    I do inch to mm conversation all the time. Luckily there are many easy to use web calculators.
    https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...nch-to-mm.html

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 07:02 PM.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Yes, mags total length is 20 mm . Mag diameter is 5 mm. I prefer to use SI units, metric, cause that is what has agreed many decades ago (for ex. USA 1866, but not much in use). Well I think it is polite to accept the units the writer uses. I do inch to mm conversation all the time. Luckily there are many easy to use web calculators.
    https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...nch-to-mm.html
    Agreed, but if I see MM, I usually don't bother, and move on!
    After all you are the one seeking help, and most here talk in inches, but feel free to do what you like.
    I was just making a suggestion!
    GL with your pickup.
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Agreed, but if I see MM, I usually don't bother, and move on!
    After all you are the one seeking help, and most here talk in inches, but feel free to do what you like.
    I was just making a suggestion!
    GL with your pickup.
    T
    Thanks. One half winded to 4,36 kΩ / 11800 turns.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pwpa87xk9...12010.jpg?dl=0
    8,72 kΩ may be too hot, but we'll see. (or listen)

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    Last edited by okabass; 06-28-2018 at 07:38 PM.

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    PS.
    I compared a split coil, a stack coil and original type single coil on my '51 reissue P bass. To my taste (rock, blues, soul...) the Stack ( S.Duncan clone) was the best, then Single coil and Split coil. What I looked is 1) character (a bit more lo end is good). 2) noisless.
    Split coil type sees to be kind of lame (cancellation?). Single is ok. with most situations. Stack is noisless, and gives very good bass sound. Like a good original single coil, but more good lo end and output.

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    Senior Member Jim Shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Don't quite follow. If I have a broken Strat PU, and I know the DCR. Say it is (or was) 5,6 kΩ/ AWG 42. Then what I'm doing wrong if I wind it to 5,6 kΩ with same type AWG 42?

    I can measure PU's inductance, capacitance, magnetic flux density (tesla/gauss), DCR . I have for example an oscilloscope, function generator and this .https://www.amazon.com/Labs-DE-5000-.../dp/B005EMT8PC
    The problem is the ohms per foot varies, especially back when that pickup was originally wound. You are assuming the ohms per foot is equal on the new spool, and it most likely is not. You would need to figure out the original wires ohms per foot, use the original reading to figure out the approximate number of winds, then apply that many winds of the new wire and the final ohms reading of the new wire will be a little different.

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    Ok. I say "same type AWG"
    It is always good to be as accurate as possible, but do you think the original -say- 7ender pickup is originally made so accurate. What I've learned they were not.

    It is always important to I think the order of magnitude. Variation between different AWG 42 wire can not be very big. Not so big that it is a problem. For example I think a winding tension may cause more variation on wires DCR per meter.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Variation between different AWG 42 wire can not be very big.
    Really? What about 7% for Min-nom and another 7% for Max-nom? 14% in total. Another 4% for Single or Heavy enamel.

    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Not so big that it is a problem.
    That's a matter of prospective, I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    I think a winding tension may cause more variation on wires DCR per meter.
    You "think" or you "know"?

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    The problem is the ohms per foot varies, especially back when that pickup was originally wound. You are assuming the ohms per foot is equal on the new spool, and it most likely is not. You would need to figure out the original wires ohms per foot, use the original reading to figure out the approximate number of winds, then apply that many winds of the new wire and the final ohms reading of the new wire will be a little different.
    That's why it is always best to wire the reproduction to the same inductance as the original.

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    DCR difference?


    If 10 to 20 % is good for 7ender then it is good for me.

    Apparently you don't think you know. Then tell us.

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    Last edited by okabass; 07-06-2018 at 06:19 PM.

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    Senior Member Jim Shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Variation between different AWG 42 wire can not be very big.
    Today, it is not huge. The 50's and 60's wire, there was a much, much larger tolerance than todays wire. Just the nature of the beast back in those days. It is part of the reason the old pickups were so inconsistent readings wise. Partially the sloppy counters, partially the wide variances in the coil wire. The tolerances were so loose back in those days. some manufacturers that required a tight tolerance would measure samples and remove out of spec wire before it hit the stockroom. A lot of NOS coil wire we find today is NOS because it was ridiculously out of spec. Fender didn't care. They used everything they got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Shine View Post
    Today, it is not huge. The 50's and 60's wire, there was a much, much larger tolerance than todays wire. Just the nature of the beast back in those days. It is part of the reason the old pickups were so inconsistent readings wise. Partially the sloppy counters, partially the wide variances in the coil wire. The tolerances were so loose back in those days. some manufacturers that required a tight tolerance would measure samples and remove out of spec wire before it hit the stockroom. A lot of NOS coil wire we find today is NOS because it was ridiculously out of spec. Fender didn't care. They used everything they got.
    Ok. Thanks.

    There seems to be a tendency to look some point with a microscope, and at the same time some points with a bare eye. The order of magnitude is good to keep in mind. Usually music-electronics 10 % precision is ok.

    That's what is presume with the tolerances at that time.
    On 7ender amp schematics voltages are ±20 %. Precision resistor was 5 %, normal was 20% carbon comp.. Now normal is 1-2 % metalfilm . One rocket engineer (really) wrote, that in the 50s they had to file the carbon composite resistors to get more precision value.

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    Senior Member LtKojak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    If 10 to 20 % is good for 7ender then it is good for me
    Good luck, then.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Wire size can make a huge difference.
    If you're not particular, why are you bothering to custom wind?
    Just buy a Joe Blow pickup.
    I've said before things that make a big difference.
    Bobbin height
    magnet strength and type
    wire size
    Wire insulation thickness
    TPL
    Turns Count
    Inductance
    etc.
    To name a few.
    T

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    Quote Originally Posted by LtKojak View Post
    Good luck, then.
    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    Wire size can make a huge difference.
    If you're not particular, why are you bothering to custom wind?
    Just buy a Joe Blow pickup.
    I've said before things that make a big difference.
    Bobbin height
    magnet strength and type
    wire size
    Wire insulation thickness
    TPL
    Turns Count
    Inductance
    etc.
    To name a few.
    T
    Ok.

    "Wire size... which makes a huge difference" "Size" means exactly what? Gauge? Diameter?

    ps. I'm gettin tired that certain dismissive style some "answer" here. To my original question I get very, very little information. Good advice is if you don't know the matter, you don't 'have' to nitpick something "wise". It seems that excluding some very informative nice members, some are just hair splitting. That's not what I expected to happen on this forum. Sorry. I'm used to give knowledge, and get knowledge.

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    As advised before: If possible measure inductance and forget the rest (apart from magnet size and strength).

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    Quote Originally Posted by okabass View Post
    Ok.

    "Wire size... which makes a huge difference" "Size" means exactly what? Gauge? Diameter?

    ps. I'm gettin tired that certain dismissive style some "answer" here. To my original question I get very, very little information. Good advice is if you don't know the matter, you don't 'have' to nitpick something "wise". It seems that excluding some very informative nice members, some are just hair splitting. That's not what I expected to happen on this forum. Sorry. I'm used to give knowledge, and get knowledge.
    So what is the exact question?
    You're making a split coil?
    What can the membership do to help?
    This pickup forum is mainly commercial builders, and guys in business don't give away a lot of particulars.
    So keep that in mind with your questions!
    GL,
    T

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    “When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.” WILL ROGERS

    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    As advised before: If possible measure inductance and forget the rest (apart from magnet size and strength).
    Ok. Thank you for the right direction. I have that kind of speculations, that the inductance is one of the most important factors.

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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_teee View Post
    So what is the exact question?
    You're making a split coil?
    What can the membership do to help?
    This pickup forum is mainly commercial builders, and guys in business don't give away a lot of particulars.
    So keep that in mind with your questions!
    GL,
    T
    "So what is the exact question? What can the membership do to help?"
    My questions were: "Like to hear your opinions how hot to wind it?" "Now I going to try more turns. What would be max turns ? My first intention is 8-9 kΩ. Is over 10 kΩ too muddy? "

    I have got from Antigua and Hemholtz, and perhaps a few others, 99 % of all the useful information. Thanks them all.

    I made a split coil already, not what I like.

    Stack type PU with two ca. 14 kΩ coils (Seym. Duncan clone) works much better to me.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl5rv0rkhe...52.42.jpg?dl=0

    I understand if someone doesn't like to give information.That is totally ok. But what I don't understand is that why then bother "answer" something off the point. And a style like thinking that the person who is asking is an idiot.

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    Last edited by okabass; 07-06-2018 at 10:32 PM.

  35. #35
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Here's a Split J pickup with large magnets I made one time.
    You might get some Ideas from it.
    http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...highlight=bass
    Data in post 5.
    Another pickup you might try in your bass is a Blade Bucker.
    You could use the blade data for a Telecaster Bridge blade pickup.
    In my experimenting I liked about everything better than a stacked pickkup, but that's just me.
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 07-06-2018 at 11:47 PM.
    “When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.” WILL ROGERS

    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

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