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Thread: 1964 No Logo Deluxe Reverb Strange Issue

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    1964 No Logo Deluxe Reverb Strange Issue

    Strange issue after the amp is turned on, warmed up and the volume set to just about any level. If a string or a chord is struck or strummed the output level sounds a bit weak. If done again but this time the strings are struck or strummed harder the output level jumps up and stays there. Not talking about the volume going up because the strings are being hit harder, the actual output volume of the amp goes up. If the amp is shut down for a while and turned back on it does the same thing.

    If I remember correctly this amp has never been touched and is in great condition, everything inside is original and in good condition. I haven't been inside it in a while. It is here again but I haven't opened it up. The owner is not sure if he wants it gone through and recapped and anything else done other than the weird volume issue. Due to the condition of the amp, he does not use it to play out, just for practice.

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    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
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    I would feed the amp a signal from a generator or ipod or phone, just not a guitar because you will need both hands. Turn the amp on and while it is cold probe around with a chopstick to see if moving, tapping, flexing or putting pressure on something makes it get louder suddenly. Include the speaker wires if they are not soldered. Check the speaker jack and plug connection. I had a Victoria 410 Bassman do this once, it turned out the speaker plug was faulty. Rock all tubes to see if there is a dodgy or oxidized socket. Check input jacks, does it do it on both, does it do it on both the Normal and the Reverb channels?

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    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

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    Yep, it sounds like a dirty, weak, corroded connection somewhere.

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    Thanks for the suggestion, I found it. I tapped around in the amp with no change until I tapped the volume pot connections. Re-soldered the connections, no change. Hooked it up to the scope and got a very bad looking sine wave. When I would play around with the volume control the sine wave would change. It would get cleaner and would occasional increase. There was a 47pf cap across the volume pot. tapping it made a slight difference but not every time. I pulled it out and it cleaned up the sine wave some. The amp does need to be recapped, they are all way over value. On to the next question. Not going to get a good looking sine wave until it's recapped.

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    Last edited by J Luth; 07-11-2018 at 11:01 PM.

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    I spoke to the owner and he has decided to go with recapping the amp. All of the 25/25 are way out, up to 140uf and bulging, most of the 16uf's are out a bit but are stating to bulge and leak. So they all have to go.

    He asked me a question that I am not sure of the correct answer.

    The main filter caps are 16uf 450v he asked if changing them to 22uf would change the sound of the amp? He was told by someone that they should be increased to 22uf. I told him I can do it either way he wants it.

    Any opinion's on that?

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of caps being that far out of tolerance and higher UF. Are you certain of your testing methods? Try a known good/new cap with the same test. It's not uncommon for older caps to have higher than labeled values as tolerances were not as "good" in the day, but that seems extreme.

    On the filter caps, you won't notice any difference going from 16UF to 22UF and 22 is a standard value. If you do notice a difference, it's not because of the difference in value, it's more likely because the old caps are shot.

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    Last edited by The Dude; 07-12-2018 at 03:50 AM.
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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    The old days saw caps with typical tolerance of +80/-20%. SO a typical 16uf cap can measure as high as 28uf and still be within spec. There is nothing with a critical value in a guitar amp.

    I recommend 22uf caps because they are a standard value, and available anywhere. 16uf is not a standard value. It might have been 50 years ago, but then I was just a college boy, and gas was cheap. So not only will it be easier and cheaper to go with 22uf, it won't even be outside the original specs. Modern caps are much closer tolerance.

    Will it change the sound of the amp? Probably, but not because of the value of those couple caps. it will change because it will now have new fresh caps. He likes the way the amp sounds with bloated, off-value, worn out caps. Nice fresh new caps are going to make the amp sound different. Will it make a Deluxe sound like a MArshall or something? No not at all. But it will sound more like a new Deluxe rather than an old tired one.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Leaky caps can take longer to charge and fool some meters into thinking higher capacitance.

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    If they are being measured in circuit, the parallel 1k5 cathode resistor may be misinterpreted by meter as a far higher capacitance.

    Unsolder at least one leg for measuring.

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    Last edited by J M Fahey; 07-12-2018 at 01:25 AM. Reason: brain fart
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Luth View Post
    I spoke to the owner and he has decided to go with recapping the amp. All of the 25/25 are way out, up to 140uf and bulging, most of the 16uf's are out a bit but are stating to bulge and leak. So they all have to go.

    He asked me a question that I am not sure of the correct answer.

    The main filter caps are 16uf 450v he asked if changing them to 22uf would change the sound of the amp? He was told by someone that they should be increased to 22uf. I told him I can do it either way he wants it.

    Any opinion's on that?
    I cannot help but mention that e-caps never go up in value by age, in fact capacitance reduces over time because the electrolyte dries out. Your measurement values seem to be the result of increased leakage conductance and a crude measuring principle/meter.

    Increasing the filter caps to 22µ may slightly reduce the amp's responsiveness in favor of tighter lows.

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 07-12-2018 at 12:52 PM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Increasing to 22µ will slightly reduce the amp's responsiveness in favor of tighter lows.
    Assuming the original 16uf caps were actually 16uf to start with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Luth View Post
    So they all have to go.
    Best plan yet. As for 22 uF "sounding different" as hi voltage filters, let's put it this way. Some people imagine they can hear a difference, and get all bent out of shape if the exact replacement part isn't installed. Those people, they're the reason the "Princess and the Pea" fable was written. Use 22's, and rest your mind, you've done the right thing.

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    If they are being measured in circuit, the parallel 1k5 cathode resistor may be misinterpreted by meter as a far higher impedance.
    I guess you mean lower impedance.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    I guess you mean lower impedance.
    Sorry, brain fart, I meant higher *capacitance* , which is what we are talking about.
    Thanks for the eagle eye.

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I gave you a thumbs up anyway. I knew what you meant.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    The old days saw caps with typical tolerance of +80/-20%. SO a typical 16uf cap can measure as high as 28uf and still be within spec. There is nothing with a critical value in a guitar amp.

    I recommend 22uf caps because they are a standard value, and available anywhere. 16uf is not a standard value. It might have been 50 years ago, but then I was just a college boy, and gas was cheap. So not only will it be easier and cheaper to go with 22uf, it won't even be outside the original specs. Modern caps are much closer tolerance.

    Will it change the sound of the amp? Probably, but not because of the value of those couple caps. it will change because it will now have new fresh caps. He likes the way the amp sounds with bloated, off-value, worn out caps. Nice fresh new caps are going to make the amp sound different. Will it make a Deluxe sound like a MArshall or something? No not at all. But it will sound more like a new Deluxe rather than an old tired one.
    +1
    In fact, that +/- was typically on the + side. So those old 16uf caps were commonly 20+uf. I always go with 22uf for it's availability. Which comes with selection options so your not stuck using some boutiquy thing that may be mediocre, but is labeled at 16uf to indicate it's "specialness". 22uf all day

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    I'll double check the 25/25. The reading was way off in circuit but the final check was with them out of circuit. It could be my eye's as I posted about them in a in a previous thread.

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    It's his choice. Antique has bot 16uf and 22uf listed. Yes the 22's are a bit cheaper.

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    Measured both in and out of circuit. Going to check again tomorrow just to see could have been my eye's. They do play tricks on me from time to time. Sometimes it's a PITB. The are going to be replaced anyway.

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    Kind of like the blind listening test.

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    In fact, that +/- was typically on the + side. So those old 16uf caps were commonly 20+uf. I always go with 22uf for it's availability. Which comes with selection options so your not stuck using some boutiquy thing that may be mediocre, but is labeled at 16uf to indicate it's "specialness". 22uf all day
    Have you ever seen one of these old caps that measured more than 20% above rated value? Me not.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Have you ever seen one of these old caps that measured more than 20% above rated value? Me not.
    Well, ok... I've seen an 8uf that measured 10. So that's 20% (though not above). I can't remember about other's as specifically except that they always seemed to be AT LEAST the posted uf value and usually higher by a tad. But there were also old caps I never measured because they were getting replaced anyway. So I can't say about any decrease with age. It's not like we can measure them the way they were I also have a limited ability to measure value because I don't have a proper bench tool. I just use my 87 which has a limit of 4.7uf. I put another cap in series with the one I'm measuring and math the result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Well, ok... I've seen an 8uf that measured 10. So that's 20% (though not above). I can't remember about other's as specifically except that they always seemed to be AT LEAST the posted uf value and usually higher by a tad. But there were also old caps I never measured because they were getting replaced anyway. So I can't say about any decrease with age. It's not like we can measure them the way they were I also have a limited ability to measure value because I don't have a proper bench tool. I just use my 87 which has a limit of 4.7uf. I put another cap in series with the one I'm measuring and math the result.
    Well I certainly know about decrease with age. In many applications the lifetime of the equipment is determined/limited by the filter cap. We did real lifetime testing (i.e running hundreds of SMPS over years at max. ambient temperature) and checked samples for C and ESR at intervals. The end-of life criterion was C down to 60% of rated value.

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    Oh, I wasn't saying it doesn't happen. I was noting that those older caps I've bothered to measure seem to be as much or greater than their rated value. If caps lose value with age then I would expect they were higher when new. I shot high.

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    If caps lose value with age then I would expect they were higher when new.
    They surely were. But the results are rather individual. C decrease is influenced by operating hours, temperature and the quality of the seal.
    The caps I had to replace (because of high ESR and leakage current - I usually just go by the too low Q-value) were often down by > 20%.

    I was just curious if someone had actually seen old filter caps (still) measuring 50% or 80% above rated.

    My oldest e-cap data book (Siemens,1961) specifies +50%/-20% for HV types and even +100%/-20% for LV types.

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 07-12-2018 at 03:45 PM.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    I was just curious if someone had actually seen old filter caps (still) measuring 50% or 80% above rated.
    50/60 years later? ... that would be very unlikely.

    That said, **maybe** we have "seen" them, but how would we know it?

    People normally do not measure every cap they see, just for fun, unless them being suspect.

    Except maybe a guy with a brand new Capacitance meter (or a Network Analyzer for that matter ) who to play with his toy measures *everything* around, even his chocolate chip cookies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    even his chocolate chip cookies.
    I need some 500v chocolate chips cookies!

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    Except maybe a guy with a brand new Capacitance meter (or a Network Analyzer for that matter ) who to play with his toy measures *everything* around, even his chocolate chip cookies.
    Well, sometimes I am a little like that
    At least I always make sure that I understand what I am doing and how the "analyzer" works.
    The measuring experience thus gained often has helped me in my job as R&D manager. We physicists are a little different (strange?), you know: Curious and extremely eager for knowledge.

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 07-12-2018 at 05:49 PM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Well that is a major difference in approach between technicians and engineers. Engineers tend more toward the theoretical, while technicians dwell on the practical. When I decide a cap needs to be changed, I change it, and don't bother spending a lot of time analyzing the bad part. I already know it is bad.

    As a technician, I am also curious and eager for knowledge. But it is a different sort of knowledge. Just as a symphony violinist has different things on his mind than does a bluegrass fiddler. Maybe the bluegrass guy can't read sheets, but the symphony guy can't jam and ad lib. Both are highly skilled.

    I have decades of experience handling tools, disassembling and assembling stuff. The engineer has decades of experience running sims and other software. The engineer might toss up a breadboard now and then, just as the technician might look up a data sheet now and then.

    When I was a kid, electronics was my hobby, and I was all into load lines, and curves, and formulae. As a technician, I have not had the need to draw a load line in 40 years.

    The engineer might hand a schematic to a technician and say "here, put this together for me." The technician might hand a circuit to an engineer, and say "This goes into oscillation if the power supply drops below 14v."

    An engineer might order 11.2 ohm resistors (A particular Yorkville/Traynor power amp comes to mind). A technician knows that if his 220k plate resistors have drifted to 290k, that still isn't the reason the amp makes no sound.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Well that is a major difference in approach between technicians and engineers. Engineers tend more toward the theoretical, while technicians dwell on the practical. When I decide a cap needs to be changed, I change it, and don't bother spending a lot of time analyzing the bad part. I already know it is bad.

    As a technician, I am also curious and eager for knowledge. But it is a different sort of knowledge. Just as a symphony violinist has different things on his mind than does a bluegrass fiddler. Maybe the bluegrass guy can't read sheets, but the symphony guy can't jam and ad lib. Both are highly skilled.

    I have decades of experience handling tools, disassembling and assembling stuff. The engineer has decades of experience running sims and other software. The engineer might toss up a breadboard now and then, just as the technician might look up a data sheet now and then.

    When I was a kid, electronics was my hobby, and I was all into load lines, and curves, and formulae. As a technician, I have not had the need to draw a load line in 40 years.

    The engineer might hand a schematic to a technician and say "here, put this together for me." The technician might hand a circuit to an engineer, and say "This goes into oscillation if the power supply drops below 14v."

    An engineer might order 11.2 ohm resistors (A particular Yorkville/Traynor power amp comes to mind). A technician knows that if his 220k plate resistors have drifted to 290k, that still isn't the reason the amp makes no sound.
    I leave it to engineers to comment

    My engineers did very well with practical as well as theoretical stuff. One technician with 10 engineers worked perfectly.
    And my practical experience and skills aren't too bad either.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    My engineers did very well with practical as well as theoretical stuff. One technician with 10 engineers worked perfectly.
    And my practical experience and skills aren't too bad either.
    yes. of course overlap. it depends on what the job is. Are your 10 engineers and one technician responsible for designing things or are they responsible for maintenance and repair of things? I think in my pro audio repair facility that ration would be reversed. Just saying one is not superior to the other, just doing different jobs.


    In one life I serviced juke boxes, and trained techs how to do it. Seeberg jukes have a mechanism - the mechanical part that scans back and forth and picks up the record and plays it - that is a mechanical marvel. A motor on a frame that drives cams and clutches and gears. Seven moving parts just to make a tiny brush quickly sweep up and down as the tone arm goes by to brush any lint off the stylus. Tone arm assembly slid side to side to get on the proper A or B side of a record. There were stacks of blade switches, oiling points, adjustment screws. I am truly impressed with this complex machine. Unfortunately whoever designed it never worked on them. Instead of an access door in the rear of the juke so you could put it in front of your nose, they made the whole mech and magazine slide forward - after you removed the front of the jukebox - and then it was hinged so it could be tilted towards you to expose the rear. And there was even a brace and chain to allow it to be suspended in that position.

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    Just saying one is not superior to the other, just doing different jobs.
    Agree and would like to add...and sometimes doing the same job with a different approach. What counts are efficiency and results. I don't like this technicians vs. engineers or engineers vs. physicists stuff. But I admit that often different "languages" and methods are used. I try to stay away from generalization and prejudice.

    I hope you are not telling me that this forum is for technicians only?

    That said, I have the highest respect for your experience and analyzing skills as well as your patience with posters.
    And I would not have interfered in your response above if I would have seen it before my posting as "too many cooks spoil the broth" and I don't think you need my help.

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    Last edited by Helmholtz; 07-13-2018 at 04:37 PM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I hope you are not telling me that this forum is for technicians only?

    No no no no...

    I never intended it to be an us versus them thing, I was just expounding on that aspect of electronics. I was the technical rep for an amusement product many years ago. The engineers came over from the UK to show me the product and how it worked. It was then up to me to support the product, train others in its use, and in fact even tweak the circuits to do extra things we wanted. I was the monkey crawling under the thing. They were the guys who came up with the design in the first place.

    I love to see new cooks in the broth. I like to see people put the same idea into words as I did, but using totally different words. Likewise I often restate someone's point in a different manner. The more ways something is presented, the more likely it will reach someone trying to understand.

    So many novice techs are afraid of the technology involved, and I like to present things in a casual dis-arming manner to help them relax and look at the circuits. And as useful as a network analyzer might be, I want kids to know you don't have to have one to work on your old Fender.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    ... As useful as a network analyzer might be, I want kids to know you don't have to have one to work on your old Fender.
    Damn, I'm glad someone finally said it. Whew!

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by km6xz View Post
    "I have come to the conclusion that the biggest risk to amp performance/reliability and "tone" is players reading the internet, not bad tube brands, and certainly not the often argued over capacitors."

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone Meister View Post
    Damn, I'm glad someone finally said it. Whew!
    Who claimed the contrary?
    You don't need a scope for simple repairs. But it helps to understand what's happening. Things change when you start to design your own stuff. Measuring is the key to understanding.
    Same with simulations.
    Why not use an analyzer when it's available and may give some clue?

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