Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Cocked Wah Sound Search w/Super Reverb

  1. #1
    Member old guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    82
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 0/0
    Given: 0/0
    Rep Power
    7

    Cocked Wah Sound Search w/Super Reverb

    Greetings,

    I am seeking the 1960s-70s cocked wah sound without the aid of electronic mods other than out of phase magnet on one of two humbuckers. I've messed with this one for about 6 months, using every magnet combination available A2 - A5. I've settled on a pair of short A2s as giving me the best/most o.o.p. for my ES335.
    This is OK but it is not quite where I need to be. Question is ... if I wire 2 of the 4 speakers o.o.p., will that cause any damage to the speakers? Before I try it, I come to you folks for consultation.
    No, a rotary switch like BB's Lucille is not the answer ... bin there/done that. It may be part of the full equation but there are other factors up higher on the list.
    Thanks in advance,
    Old Guy Jake.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  2. #2
    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Pace, FL
    Posts
    3,116
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,020/100
    Given: 141/35
    Rep Power
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Greetings,

    I am seeking the 1960s-70s cocked wah sound without the aid of electronic mods other than out of phase magnet on one of two humbuckers. I've messed with this one for about 6 months, using every magnet combination available A2 - A5. I've settled on a pair of short A2s as giving me the best/most o.o.p. for my ES335.
    This is OK but it is not quite where I need to be. Question is ... if I wire 2 of the 4 speakers o.o.p., will that cause any damage to the speakers? Before I try it, I come to you folks for consultation.
    No, a rotary switch like BB's Lucille is not the answer ... bin there/done that. It may be part of the full equation but there are other factors up higher on the list.
    Thanks in advance,
    Old Guy Jake.
    Do you have an example of a player or a song you may be referencing. I'm sure that with just a guitar and an amp part of it could be the amp?

    See your in FL hopefully not near Panama City, we missed it here in Pensacola.
    nosaj

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Binkie McFartnuggets‏:If we really wanted to know the meaning of life we would have fed Stephen Hawking shrooms a long time ago.

  3. #3
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Dogpatch-on-Hudson
    Posts
    6,196
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,228/15
    Given: 1,115/0
    Rep Power
    13
    I know you're trying to do it without pedals, but I'm afraid you'll be stymied every other way. If you do decide to accept the pedal solution, two things come to mind, both available at tubesandmore.com aka Antique. I'm not an owner/worker, just a satisfied customer.

    First, a kit they call the T-philter. Couple of transistors, simple enough to build point to point. No circus board offered. I built one for a customer, he likes it a bunch. Plays in Zep & Who tribute bands. link: https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...ilter-t-filter

    Second, and most obvious, they sell the loaded circuit board that goes in a current Dunlop copy of the old Vox wah. link: https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...dunlop-crybaby You supply the box, switch, jacks, battery, and a 100K pot. Can't get much more authentic than that. Of course you could pull the guts out of any working used wah you can score cheap. Option: you can swap in a Fasel inductor, alter the value of the peaking resistor, anything else to suit your taste.

    A wah is a medium-narrow band parametric EQ, with about 20 dB of boost at the frequency selected by sweeping the control pot. I'd have to say, that's an impossible bill to fill by fiddling with pickups, passive guitar electronics, running speakers out of phase, etc. You could spend months, years, poking around with ineffective solutions. Why not go for the gusto?

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Enjoy. Every. Sandwich.

  4. #4
    Member old guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    82
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 0/0
    Given: 0/0
    Rep Power
    7
    Thanks Guys!!

    You can reference the sound at the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGAqBaHYJ8Q
    After a 7 year stint in Austin Texas in the eighties, my then research into Freddie Kings' 335s, 45s and 55s told me his rotary switch was never functioning. Also, I do have an old dunlop wah pedal and can achieve the tone BUT, as a performer, I hate tap dancing on switches or just plain having anything in the signal path between guitar and amp.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  5. #5
    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Pace, FL
    Posts
    3,116
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,020/100
    Given: 141/35
    Rep Power
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Thanks Guys!!

    You can reference the sound at the following video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGAqBaHYJ8Q
    After a 7 year stint in Austin Texas in the eighties, my then research into Freddie Kings' 335s, 45s and 55s told me his rotary switch was never functioning. Also, I do have an old dunlop wah pedal and can achieve the tone BUT, as a performer, I hate tap dancing on switches or just plain having anything in the signal path between guitar and amp.
    Ok follow me here, you want to have a sound like Freddy kings guitar with non functioning rotary switch? MAybe the reason for it non functioning is the reason for his sound?

    ok i found this what do you think?
    https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...Esquire_Wiring
    nosaj

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Binkie McFartnuggets‏:If we really wanted to know the meaning of life we would have fed Stephen Hawking shrooms a long time ago.

  6. #6
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Dogpatch-on-Hudson
    Posts
    6,196
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,228/15
    Given: 1,115/0
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    I do have an old dunlop wah pedal and can achieve the tone BUT, as a performer, I hate tap dancing on switches or just plain having anything in the signal path between guitar and amp.
    A guitarist I knew - he's fallen off the scene, last I heard has taken on a new career as a jailbird - back in the 70's chipped a big cavity in his Melody Maker, installed a Vox wah circuit board, battery clip, toggle switch and 100K frequency control pot. You have a hollow body axe, right? Well that will save having to hack a hole in the body.

    After that, I'm out of ideas. I'll be watching though. If you find a solution that works for you, sure thing I'm not the only one who will want to know how ya done it. Best of luck!

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Enjoy. Every. Sandwich.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Pedro Vecino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    640
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 180/0
    Given: 90/0
    Rep Power
    14
    I think you dīont need a wah. Try a good Dallas Rangemaster treble booster.

    https://youtu.be/0PcmBORGXPM?t=58

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Pedro Vecino; 10-21-2018 at 10:33 PM.

  8. #8
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Just south of Bawlmer, Merlin
    Posts
    2,656
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 351/6
    Given: 345/1
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    You beat me to it. The Eldred circuit may not sound exactly like a cocked wah, but does produce a useful tone that some describe as "nasally vocal-like". Works on Tele, anyway.

    -rb

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  9. #9
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    14,978
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,020/4
    Given: 2,306/0
    Rep Power
    29
    Something I mentioned here not long ago has helped Steve A get some tones he was after that aren't unlike what you want. The tone control on your guitar can alter the resonant peak of the pickup. Altering the cap value can change the effect. Unfortunately this only works with the 335 wiring when the volume control is up full. Otherwise the pot resistance spoils the interaction between the pickups inductance and the tone cap. But below are images of a generic guitar circuit, wired as the 335 with the tone control following the volume, including the guitar cable capacitance and typical 1M load at the amp. Figure 11 shows the stock arrangement. Figure 22 could be implemented on a push/pull pot. As you can see it moves the resonant peak down almost 2K and rolls down LF with very little loss in peak frequency output. Like a mid boost with HF and LF roll off. Not dissimilar to what a Wah pedal does. Submitted for your consideration:

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	11.JPG 
Views:	122 
Size:	219.3 KB 
ID:	50862   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	22.JPG 
Views:	119 
Size:	217.8 KB 
ID:	50863  

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Chuck H; 10-22-2018 at 03:03 PM.
    "Never bet your life on somebody else doing their job." SoulFetish's good friend

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

    "Back to the amp. It makes horrible sounds when I play my guitar thru it... because I suck at playing guitar." Mike6158

  10. #10
    Senior Member Daver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee
    Posts
    410
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 6/0
    Given: 18/1
    Rep Power
    14
    I would think that if you want the Freddie King sound you have to do things like Freddie did. Turn your amp Volume and Treble up to 10, turn the Bass and Middle down to near 0. Set you guitar Volume controls to about 5 and the Tones to taste. Then, you need to use a thumb pick and a metal pick on your index finger. I don't think any pedal or guitar device is going to get you there. He was a unique player with garden variety equipment that he knew how to manipulate to get his sound.

    Dave

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  11. #11
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Chill-Ville, VA
    Posts
    3,054
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 609/6
    Given: 1,127/9
    Rep Power
    17
    Not just ANY amp... No! A Super Six Reverb or Quad Reverb! Which, I'm not scared to turn to 10, but many are...

    Justin

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
    "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
    "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

  12. #12
    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Pace, FL
    Posts
    3,116
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,020/100
    Given: 141/35
    Rep Power
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    Not just ANY amp... No! A Super Six Reverb or Quad Reverb! Which, I'm not scared to turn to 10, but many are...

    Justin
    Which you suffer from, maybe why jusrin comes out every now and then.
    nosaj

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Binkie McFartnuggets‏:If we really wanted to know the meaning of life we would have fed Stephen Hawking shrooms a long time ago.

  13. #13
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    14,978
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,020/4
    Given: 2,306/0
    Rep Power
    29
    Wow! Everyone just ignored that post I put up.?. I agree that at a glance it's not very compelling. But look! The signal at 1.1K is actually boosted by 6dB!!! And I think that's sort of the goal.?. The LF is trimmed to take out the mud in absence of the HF so what you end up with is a sort of narrow band mid boost sound. Like a Wah pedal. Further, it can be done at the guitar without the need for pedals or boosters.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "Never bet your life on somebody else doing their job." SoulFetish's good friend

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

    "Back to the amp. It makes horrible sounds when I play my guitar thru it... because I suck at playing guitar." Mike6158

  14. #14
    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Pace, FL
    Posts
    3,116
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,020/100
    Given: 141/35
    Rep Power
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Wow! Everyone just ignored that post I put up.?. I agree that at a glance it's not very compelling. But look! The signal at 1.1K is actually boosted by 6dB!!! And I think that's sort of the goal.?. The LF is trimmed to take out the mud in absence of the HF so what you end up with is a sort of narrow band mid boost sound. Like a Wah pedal. Further, it can be done at the guitar without the need for pedals or boosters.
    All that geek speak and stuff we need sound remember we're simple creatures.
    nosaj

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Binkie McFartnuggets‏:If we really wanted to know the meaning of life we would have fed Stephen Hawking shrooms a long time ago.

  15. #15
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Dogpatch-on-Hudson
    Posts
    6,196
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,228/15
    Given: 1,115/0
    Rep Power
    13
    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    we need sound
    Late last night the radio brought me an example. Plenty of mid boost tones here! I'm not much a fan of this band BUT can't argue with terrific tone & playing. Ear candy guitar bits start with a lick at 0:52, more at 1:32 then continuing to the fade at 3 minutes. Whether you're a glam rock fan or not, I'm sure you can dig this, enjoy...


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Enjoy. Every. Sandwich.

  16. #16
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Just south of Bawlmer, Merlin
    Posts
    2,656
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 351/6
    Given: 345/1
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Wow! Everyone just ignored that post I put up.?
    No, we were struck mute by its awesomeness.

    -rb


    EDIT: Some questions & comments on your post.
    > You told us that the tone control capacitor can alter the resonant frequency of the pickup; you could have demonstrated by showing a plot with the tone control turned down.
    > IIRC the wiring diagram with tone control "after" volume is what people call "50's wiring" (and probably is the way Steve A wired his guitars). But most 335's with stock wiring would have tone control before volume.
    > Old Guy's mention of rotary switches implies he may have a varitone (or two) in his guitar. The wiring diagrams below show that for the stereo version, both the varitones and the standard tone controls precede the volume controls; for the mono version, the standard tone controls come before volume, and master varitone comes after volume. At any rate, if you were to short out the varitone's inductor and change the capacitor values, you could use the rotary switch to change the pickup's resonant frequency. If you replaced the 100K resistor with a capacitor, you would have a variable version of Chuck's magic circuit.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2859732516_1aee2750a9_o.jpg 
Views:	35 
Size:	167.8 KB 
ID:	50875
    For some reason, I can't get the mono version to display. Oh well, it had an obvious mistake anyway- and it can easily be found online.

    Later,
    -rb
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2862193610_b82184f436_o.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	77.7 KB 
ID:	50876  

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by rjb; 10-23-2018 at 03:29 PM.
    DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,332/1
    Given: 780/2
    Rep Power
    4
    Question is ... if I wire 2 of the 4 speakers o.o.p., will that cause any damage to the speakers?
    No problem for speakers/amp. You may try it but I don't think it will get you there.


    Some thoughts: To me the nasal sound produced by 2 OOP-wired humbuckers (as used by Peter Green) is way different from the narrow peaked resonance filter sound of a wah. The latter can only give vowel-like filtering. The electronic way to create a nasal effect instead, would be a notch filter, which does not produce a peak like a wah, but a frequency dip/notch instead. Just the opposite.

    To find out what type of filtering (narrow band boost or attenuation) you prefer, it would be best to get hold of a parametric equalizer which offers both and experiment with settings.

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    - Own Opinions Only -

  18. #18
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    11,573
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,733/18
    Given: 1,333/29
    Rep Power
    26
    Chopping down to basics, an "anything-wah" sound means a relatively narrow resonant peak smack in the audible guitar band ... thatīs what a Wah does!!! ... and implies a resonant circuit of some sort; usually an LC one unless you want to go active.
    No phase/antiphase wiring will do that because it lacks the L/C element.

    So options are:
    1) actually use a Wah
    2) use a Guitar with an LC resonant thingie inside (Gibson Varitone for example) , which is clearly part of the Kings sound but is being conveniently ignored by the OP, who wants to get it with "any guitar" but not using it
    3) use a *small* capacitor to tune pickup inductance somewhere in the desired band; it will not alter Bass, will produce a peak at desired frequency and roll off highs above that (instead of the massive treble rolloff cause by conventional .022 or .047 caps).

    Pick one.
    PS: suitable circuits doing that have already been suggested above.
    Just sayinī

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,332/1
    Given: 780/2
    Rep Power
    4
    Chopping down to basics, an "anything-wah" sound means a relatively narrow resonant peak smack in the audible guitar band ... thatīs what a Wah does!!! ... and implies a resonant circuit of some sort; usually an LC one unless you want to go active.
    True, but - as indicated above - there seems to be some contradiction in post #1. As mentioned by the OP he prefers an OOP PU sound and the Gibson Varitone circuit is actually a (series resonance) LC notch filter. Consequently any wah-type resonance boost circuit may be counterproductive.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Helmholtz; 10-23-2018 at 11:42 PM.
    - Own Opinions Only -

  20. #20
    Old Timer
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Just south of Bawlmer, Merlin
    Posts
    2,656
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 351/6
    Given: 345/1
    Rep Power
    12
    I've seen lots of completely different circuits described as producing a "cocked wah sound" or "something like a cocked wah sound". OP said "cocked wah sound". What OP meant was "sounds like Freddy King's tone". Is that actually a "cocked wah sound"? I dunno; I mostly back up fiddle players with an acoustic flattop.

    -rb

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Super reverb making a breaking up noise/static sound
    By Dandrix in forum Debugging Your Build
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-19-2012, 09:40 PM
  2. No Sound on just the NORMAL channel of a 1971 Super Reverb
    By 64deluxe in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-08-2011, 01:48 AM
  3. 66 Super Reverb no so super sounding
    By booj in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 12-09-2010, 04:21 PM
  4. Super High voltage AB763 Super Reverb
    By Beardsley in forum Debugging Your Build
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-22-2010, 12:30 AM
  5. crackling sound on my SF super reverb
    By qwixzh in forum Maintenance, Troubleshooting & Repair
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 11:45 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •