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Thread: terminating unused wiring bundle question

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    terminating unused wiring bundle question

    Hi All,
    I have a project started months ago, trying to resurrect it before it disappears into the abyss.
    JTM45 type thing, has (slightly overpriced) mercury RadioSpares OT. The unused bundle has many wires. I looked for ages to find out what other people do to terminate the unused bundle, but most are completed amps so I can't see the cable.
    I twisted the bundle, but later learned the pairs should be twisted. Will fix that. I trimmed the ends of the unused wires neatly, then put heat shrink I then put a bigger diameter heat shrink over the bundle and tried to bend it so it fit under the main turret board.
    The shrink wrapped bundle fits under the board, but it has too much tension in the bend, so it puts a lot of pressure on the bottom of the board. Im afraid if I bolt the board down, a little piece of lead or solder protruding from the bottom of the board will work its way down into the bundle and do something awful.
    any suggestions greatly appreciated on how to get this bundle terminated well, and tucked under the board where it won't interact with any other signal and have a good mechanical bend so it doesn't stress anything else.

    Thanks
    MP

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    TTIUWP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    TTIUWP
    Ouch, sorry. (slapping forehead). Getting the camera out now. . .

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    Board with the cockroach trapeze:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The bundle is pretty thick. Maybe should make separate bundles? Anyway, I can push the bundle down but it still makes contact with the bottom of the board. Was a royal pain (for me) to make the board sit, but maybe taller standoffs?
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    Board dry fit on the standoffs.
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    I might be concerned about bundling up the OT leads and hiding them under the board approaching the preamp. It's just begging to incite instability. What the hell are all those leads for and why do you wish to keep them? If it's a MM transformer or something then maybe I could see keeping the length to preserve the value of it. But I don't think bundling long output transformer leads under the board in that direction is a good idea.

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    I might be concerned about bundling up the OT leads and hiding them under the board approaching the preamp. It's just begging to incite instability.
    ^^^^^That!

    OT primary leads together with the power tube anodes are the strongest electric signal field radiators in an amp and should be kept away from the board or the preamp tubes. I can understand that someone wants to keep (some of) them for later experiments with different primary impedances but they should at least be kept on top of the shielding grounded chassis if it is not possible to hide them within the OT bells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I might be concerned about bundling up the OT leads and hiding them under the board approaching the preamp. It's just begging to incite instability.
    Agree with Helmholtz, and you. I can tell you about a couple of x-pensive boo-tiki amps I've had to "fix" by applying a layer of copper foil shielding below the circuit board, blocking the EMF from output transformer leads. All while thinking "hey these guys get paid THOUSANDS of bucks, why didn't they think of this???

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    Senior Member Pedro Vecino's Avatar
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    That supposes serious problems. My advice is keep them out of the chassis.

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    I like Helholtz's idea of stashing them in the endbells. There's usually some space in there. You can cut them only as short as you have to to get them to fit. That way you can fish them out later and (shrink tube an extension if you have to) to experiment with them later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I might be concerned about bundling up the OT leads and hiding them under the board approaching the preamp. It's just begging to incite instability. What the hell are all those leads for and why do you wish to keep them? If it's a MM transformer or something then maybe I could see keeping the length to preserve the value of it. But I don't think bundling long output transformer leads under the board in that direction is a good idea.
    OK thanks Chuck. So, the primary has leads for a bunch of different impedances. 9k, 8.8k, 6k, ultra linear. And the output side has a really funky connection setup, all of the leads are used for every speaker impedance.

    If I trim back the leads so they would reach the output tubes, maybe they would terminate about where the PI parts sit. Don't know where else to put them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    ^^^^^That!

    OT primary leads together with the power tube anodes are the strongest electric signal field radiators in an amp and should be kept away from the board or the preamp tubes. I can understand that someone wants to keep (some of) them for later experiments with different primary impedances but they should at least be kept on top of the shielding grounded chassis if it is not possible to hide them within the OT bells.
    Thanks, yeah, they all come out of the bells, so no way to pack them in there. Bells aren't big enough inside as well, I think. So, find a way to put them on top of the chassis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I like Helholtz's idea of stashing them in the endbells. There's usually some space in there. You can cut them only as short as you have to to get them to fit. That way you can fish them out later and (shrink tube an extension if you have to) to experiment with them later.

    OK thanks again, I'll take the OT apart and see how much room between the transformer and bell body. Hope there's enough room. Looks like I made it way hard on myself for this build, thought it was going to be easy, breezy. No breezing so far. (Thank God for Jerry Murad and the harmonicats)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Agree with Helmholtz, and you. I can tell you about a couple of x-pensive boo-tiki amps I've had to "fix" by applying a layer of copper foil shielding below the circuit board, blocking the EMF from output transformer leads. All while thinking "hey these guys get paid THOUSANDS of bucks, why didn't they think of this???
    Hi Leo, that's in teresting. So, do you put copper foil over teh wiring, then some kind of insulation over that? I have a piece of fiberglass board that's thinner than the eyelet/turret board stuff. Can cut a piece of that to keep the copper from shorting something out.

    In case there isn't room in the end bells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Hi Leo, that's in teresting. So, do you put copper foil over teh wiring, then some kind of insulation over that? I have a piece of fiberglass board that's thinner than the eyelet/turret board stuff. Can cut a piece of that to keep the copper from shorting something out.

    In case there isn't room in the end bells.
    Or you can use all the taps . I had a ceritone jtm45 and it had a plastic box attached to the chassis had 4,8,16ohm jacks. Would give the option of trying out different speakers. Especially if you start collecting organs, you'll get lots of speakers that way, variety of ohms.
    nosaj
    Or use this
    https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...ement-marshall

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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    Or you can use all the taps . I had a ceritone jtm45 and it had a plastic box attached to the chassis had 4,8,16ohm jacks. Would give the option of trying out different speakers. Especially if you start collecting organs, you'll get lots of speakers that way, variety of ohms.
    nosaj
    Or use this
    https://www.tubesandmore.com/product...ement-marshall
    Thanks for the link. This ot is weird. I read an article by somebody someplace that said it was part of its 'mojo'. Also, had a post here on MEF about it as well. It doesn't wire up like normal transformers, which is prob. why marshall ditched them. Every impedance uses all of the wires, so I think some of the gurus here found a way to wire up 2 impedancs with a dpdt I think.

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    OK ok I bought it in a fit of crazy. If I had bought the standard JTM45 replacement transformer, the amp would be many solder joints closer to completion than it is now. live and ... live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Hi Leo, that's in teresting. So, do you put copper foil over teh wiring, then some kind of insulation over that? I have a piece of fiberglass board that's thinner than the eyelet/turret board stuff. Can cut a piece of that to keep the copper from shorting something out.
    In one case a bundle of OT wires sprouted up from the chassis, right under the most sensitive point on the circuit board. Perfect setup for ultrasonic oscillation. I made a sandwich, this time out of two slices of fish paper with a layer of copper foil between. Ran a wire from the copper to a chassis ground. No more oscillation. Fargen serial #7, I guess he was still learning.

    Maybe I'm just an old fogey, but I think a big bucks booteek builder should really prove his build works, without built-in problems like this, before selling them to customers. Now he's 15 years further along in his career, I hope he's not doing anything like that for the last 14.

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    Not to derail Mikes thread, but...

    Surely anyone selling amps for big bucks (which, btw, doesn't mean big profit ) is testing both the design in general before building AND the individual amp under ALL playing styles and conditions before giving it a pass.?. I've made a dozen amps. Three of which aren't in circulation (two pre production models (Dean Markley has one and I have the other) and the prototype for those(my personal amp). I never let an amp off my bench before it was "right". I could understand getting stressed and needing to deliver a product. But if the extra expense of bewteek gear doesn't cover AT LEAST what I offer then why should the customer spend the money? If I bought a custom amp and it was squealing when I cranked it I would surely feel my off had been pissed on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    In one case a bundle of OT wires sprouted up from the chassis, right under the most sensitive point on the circuit board. Perfect setup for ultrasonic oscillation. I made a sandwich, this time out of two slices of fish paper with a layer of copper foil between. Ran a wire from the copper to a chassis ground. No more oscillation. Fargen serial #7, I guess he was still learning.

    Maybe I'm just an old fogey, but I think a big bucks booteek builder should really prove his build works, without built-in problems like this, before selling them to customers. Now he's 15 years further along in his career, I hope he's not doing anything like that for the last 14.
    Leo not kidding. When they charge that much, they sure shouldn't be doing rank amateur stuff. The name struck a bell, don't know Fargen amps but do you remember the line from Johnny Dangerously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Not to derail Mikes thread, but...

    Surely anyone selling amps for big bucks (which, btw, doesn't mean big profit ) is testing both the design in general before building AND the individual amp under ALL playing styles and conditions before giving it a pass.?. I've made a dozen amps. Three of which aren't in circulation (two pre production models (Dean Markley has one and I have the other) and the prototype for those(my personal amp). I never let an amp off my bench before it was "right". I could understand getting stressed and needing to deliver a product. But if the extra expense of bewteek gear doesn't cover AT LEAST what I offer then why should the customer spend the money? If I bought a custom amp and it was squealing when I cranked it I would surely feel my off had been pissed on.
    Oh man, yeah, true. And what if it was worse, and didn't squeal but digested itself? heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    do you remember the line from Johnny Dangerously?
    heh.... reminds me every time

    Somewheres about that time my old friend and sometimes customer Jim Weider co-developed an amp with Mr. Fargen. I'm sure it must have sounded fabulous, after a countless back 'n forth across the USA. I heard by the time Jim deemed it acceptable, poor Mr. Fargen was ready to be admitted to the Institute for the Very Very Nervous. Better him than me, I say. Hope he's OK now.

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    Here's a link to the thread mentioned above about how to wire the secondary to get at least two secondary impedances on a switch.

    Link: https://music-electronics-forum.com/...ad.php?t=46637

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    I remember Benjamin Fargen asking questions on here (Ampage) before he started building amps. It seems like only yesterday but it was over 20 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by loudthud View Post
    Here's a link to the thread mentioned above about how to wire the secondary to get at least two secondary impedances on a switch.

    Link: https://music-electronics-forum.com/...ad.php?t=46637
    Ah Bing!!! Thanks. At least my memory isn't so shot that I didn't remember there was a thread (although I couldnt find it). I have to download and print...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    OK thanks again, I'll take the OT apart and see how much room between the transformer and bell body. Hope there's enough room. Looks like I made it way hard on myself for this build, thought it was going to be easy, breezy. No breezing so far. (Thank God for Jerry Murad and the harmonicats)
    If it turns out the unused primary / secondary leads won't fit inside the end bell, you could re-route that unused bundle toward the power/SB switch, and around that corner and secure there. 3M offers copper tape (adhesive back), which works well for wrapping / shielding purposes. Heat shrink sleeving over that (with a grounding lead from the copper tape to go to chassis ground) would be a suitable alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevetslab View Post
    If it turns out the unused primary / secondary leads won't fit inside the end bell, you could re-route that unused bundle toward the power/SB switch, and around that corner and secure there. 3M offers copper tape (adhesive back), which works well for wrapping / shielding purposes. Heat shrink sleeving over that (with a grounding lead from the copper tape to go to chassis ground) would be a suitable alternative.
    Thanks Nevetslab. (also, hope you and family are safe from the fires in CA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    heh.... reminds me every time

    Somewheres about that time my old friend and sometimes customer Jim Weider co-developed an amp with Mr. Fargen. I'm sure it must have sounded fabulous, after a countless back 'n forth across the USA. I heard by the time Jim deemed it acceptable, poor Mr. Fargen was ready to be admitted to the Institute for the Very Very Nervous. Better him than me, I say. Hope he's OK now.
    Im searching the 'net for a pro amp builder with the last name Bastage, to join up with mr Fargen so we can get a Fargen Bastage amp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepukmel View Post
    Thanks Nevetslab. (also, hope you and family are safe from the fires in CA).
    YES, thanks for asking. The closest one that sprang up was last Friday, in Griffith Park, a few miles from where I live. Scary events up and down the state right now, and with Trump suggesting funding to aid the victims of the fires may be withheld!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevetslab View Post
    YES, thanks for asking. The closest one that sprang up was last Friday, in Griffith Park, a few miles from where I live. Scary events up and down the state right now, and with Trump suggesting funding to aid the victims of the fires may be withheld!
    Glad to year you're OK. Hard not to get on my soap box, but I was furious and sad at the president's comment.

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    On a lighter note, got together with my assistant and started working on removing the transformer to check clearance with the end bells. He's an expert machinist so Im relying on his experience. That's me on the left.

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    Anyone remember the old AAMCO commercial with the monkeys slapping at a transmission with plastic baseball bats? "Our mechanics are experts" (cue monkey shot). I looked for it on *outube, but couldn't find it.

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    Right on! I didn't see it with my search for some reason. I put in "monkey" "AAMCO" "Commercial" and three different ones without monkeys came up first and I didn't scroll further than the first page. Wow, that was '82 !?! I would have been 14. Why do I remember that commercial?

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

  34. #34
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    ......Why do I remember that commercial?
    Because monkeys, midgets, and fart jokes are always funny when you're 14.

    4 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  35. #35
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    Oh man, I remember that commercial. What a riot. Funny even when we're slightly over 14 as well.

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    Colonel Potter:
    "You're askin' a man who graduated 246 out of a class of 248 to do his BEST?"

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