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  • #16
    When you say "NOTE: this seems fine to me because the only "useful" setting for a tone control is all the way down with the volume all the way up.." I'm totally bemused. If I don't know how anyone (not just me/ I don't like a screetchy high end tone.. I just like it balanced nothing more) could play for 5 seconds with the tone turned all the way down.. then your serntence adds even more mystery & Iu just give up. It just sounds like its underwater. As I said even at vol 9 its got a dark veil on it (so why would anyone even use it even at 9 I ask myself?). Then putting vol it back to 10.. is just like putting it as it should be. Nothing more than that. I don't have weird ears, or hate bassy music in general, or anything odd. Its just when I play a gtr, for some reason, the tone & vol "options" or "pallet" as it were.. are simply unavailable it seems. Or rather nothing useful coinciding with any clips I hear of players using their vol knobs. I just don't know how they do it: well I can, they just turn the knob down.. but rather why when -I- do it, even a fraction of vol roll off (on every single gtr ive owned, in 35 years, gibsons, fenders, danelectros anything) the sound becomes ridiculously-unuseably-so bassy. So I put it back to 10 in all of 3 seconds flat.

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    • #17
      As I understand it, the "50's mod" is supposed to help with the volume /treble loss issue.
      As you lower the volume on standard wiring, you lose treble.
      O/k.
      What's up with the 0.047 tone capacitor?
      Talk about mud!
      I would suggest trying an 0.022uf.

      Hook up two alligator clips and experiment.
      Caps in parallel add up.
      In series they divide.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
        As I understand it, the "50's mod" is supposed to help with the volume /treble loss issue.
        As you lower the volume on standard wiring, you lose treble.
        O/k.
        What's up with the 0.047 tone capacitor?
        Talk about mud!
        I would suggest trying an 0.022uf.

        Hook up two alligator clips and experiment.
        Caps in parallel add up.
        In series they divide.
        I think that's why I rewired it to 50's.. but I can't tell a mite of difference. The .047 tone cap is simply what is suggested as stock (albeit with 250k pots). If I have brighter 500k pots, then it'll even things out compared to swapping the cap for a .022 Id suggest.

        I'm not on board with caps in pasrrallel.. bit: bc there are no caps. There is one cap in the std tele wiring (or 50's mod).

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
          I hear of players using their vol knobs. I just don't know how they do it: well I can, they just turn the knob down.. but rather why when -I- do it, even a fraction of vol roll off (on every single gtr ive owned, in 35 years, gibsons, fenders, danelectros anything) the sound becomes ridiculously-unuseably-so bassy. So I put it back to 10 in all of 3 seconds flat.
          Have you ever tried a "bright" cap (or cap + resistor) on the guitar's vol pot? It's easy to try on a Tele. It could even be set up to make it brighter as the vol is turned down (if that's what you want).

          Click image for larger version

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          • #20
            Hi Dave H. No I haven't done or known of this but I am just reading up on something similar just with a cap.. what's the resistor for?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
              Hi Dave H. No I haven't done or known of this but I am just reading up on something similar just with a cap.. what's the resistor for?
              I think the resistor is to stop it over cooking it (becoming too bright) at low vol pot settings (as it can do with just a cap). It only works when the vol pot is turned down. Your vol on 10 tone is unchanged.

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              • #22
                That's very interesting. I will try it/ I have a 680pf silver mica & a 150k (1/2w?).

                So.. the question is, is this the way those clip chaps I see, for eg demonstrating the range of tone from a good ~20w amp dimed, is this what they have as stock standard.. in order to turn their vols down & back up w'out seemingly any treble loss-? is this the very trick?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
                  That's very interesting. I will try it/ I have a 680pf silver mica & a 150k (1/2w?).

                  So.. the question is, is this the way those clip chaps I see, for eg demonstrating the range of tone from a good ~20w amp dimed, is this what they have as stock standard.. in order to turn their vols down & back up w'out seemingly any treble loss-? is this the very trick?
                  For starters I'll mention that the 150k/680p cap "treble bleed" circuit will change the taper of the pot horribly. But if you change to an audio taper volume control it'll be similar enough to a linear taper without that circuit in place. Just something to consider if you notice the taper get's goofy...

                  And there are a couple of things that could be happening when players are demonstrating the range of tones on an amp and controlling the overdrive with their guitars volume knob. One is that they may be using a treble bleed circuit on their guitars volume control. Guys that like to play like that are very hip to the circuit. The other thing that often (but not always) happens is that some amps sound much more compressed on the top end when pushed hard. So when you stop pushing them so hard they tend to sound a little brighter. This can somewhat counter the treble loss from turning the guitar volume down.
                  "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                  "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                  "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                  You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
                    When you say "NOTE: this seems fine to me because the only "useful" setting for a tone control is all the way down with the volume all the way up.." I'm totally bemused. If I don't know how anyone (not just me/ I don't like a screetchy high end tone.. I just like it balanced nothing more) could play for 5 seconds with the tone turned all the way down.. then your serntence adds even more mystery & Iu just give up. It just sounds like its underwater.
                    As Jazz noted, the .047uf cap is standard on that guitar, but .022uf may be better for you. Now,.. Because of the pickups inductance there is a reaction when a capacitance to ground is introduced that forms a resonance. This demonstrates as a peak in the frequency curve. With the tone control all the way up the only capacitance is from the guitar cable and the pickup itself. Any significant resistance between the capacitance and it's connection to ground will spoil the resonance so you only get less treble. When you remove all resistance between the tone cap and ground you still have treble rolled off, but you also get a resonant peak at a lower frequency. It's a pretty obvious phenomenon to most players.
                    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Forgive me but 'sounding compressed'. Ive never in 35 yrs of playing (even owning a compressor pedal once!) known what this means. I only understand compressed in terms of compressing info onto something, with a detriment in quality as a result.. I think. In terms of sound I cannot compute the term 'compressed'. I've played SF champs dimed, or luckily a 5e3 original for a quick blast turned up, which I'm told & read has the word 'compressed' somewhere or other in the mix of what I was hearing/ playing, or something. So "some amps sound much more compressed on the top end when pushed hard" I understand only the last 3 words: the rest may as well be in russian, I just don't understand what is meant.

                      And also " When you remove all resistance between the tone cap and ground you still have treble rolled off, but you also get a resonant peak at a lower frequency. It's a pretty obvious phenomenon to most players.".. once again I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea what any of this means (is 'treble rolled off' mean knob is 0? or 10?).

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                      • #26
                        I don't neccessarily need to know what any of this technical wording xyz is or means per se.. I just need to find out how to get the gtr & amp sounding right > & Im off. Its just Ive -never- been able to do this, in 35 years. So I give up muttering 'fkn ott bass again Im sick of it' or s'thing & pick up the acoustic instead. 35 years.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
                          I don't neccessarily need to know what any of this technical wording xyz is or means per se.. I just need to find out how to get the gtr & amp sounding right > & Im off. Its just Ive -never- been able to do this, in 35 years. So I give up muttering 'fkn ott bass again Im sick of it' or s'thing & pick up the acoustic instead. 35 years.
                          All I can say is Damn........Don't you think if you attempted to ever try to understand some of it , it might help us help you instead the super long threads.
                          nosaj
                          soldering stuff that's broken, breaking stuff that works, Yeah!

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                          • #28
                            I honestly can't believe I'm explaining "compressed" to a seasoned player, but here goes. "Compressed on the top end when pushed hard" means that the treble frequencies become more similar in amplitude with all other frequencies even if the treble frequencies are of greater amplitude than other frequencies when an amp is not pushed. Compression in general has the effect of making all sounds of similar amplitude. So, for example, when you pluck a string the attack makes a clear and loud report. It's amplitude is greater than the following ringing of the note. Compression would reduce the amplitude of the attack and increase the amplitude of the ringing note. Further, a ringing note has greater amplitude than a decaying note. Compression can increase the amplitude of the decaying note relative to the ringing note. You have certainly heard this effect when overdriving an amplifier. It's the largest contributor to the sensitivity and increased sustain.

                            And treble rolled off is only an adjective term to describe the sound. If I has meant "knob is 0" I would have said knob is 0. So, in this case treble rolled off means there is less treble. This as it applies to the tonal affect I was describing. See below in five minutes.
                            "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                            "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                            "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                            You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Here are some simulation I put together regarding some of what we've been discussing. Maybe it will help clear some things up.





                              Attached Files
                              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                How can I attempt to understand it, if I don't know what to hear.. I don't have 'guitar buddies' who can show me, a gtr shop I could talk to s'one in (& hear xyz).. is my point nosaj. As I said I dont -need- to understand "resonant peaks".. "compressed top end".. "treble roll off".. "scooped mids" in order to play a guitar well & be happy. I don't need to understand how my PC works in order to use it well, do I? I do try.. scooped mids for eg: Ive tried zillions of times to think of what it possibly means relative to something heard.. so I dial my Twin Reverb tone knobs here & those there to try & understand it.. but even still I cannot make any sense of what the fk these two words mean.

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