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Thread: Darn those vintage Fender speaker mounting screws!

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    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
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    Darn those vintage Fender speaker mounting screws!

    Why didn't someone tell me those speaker mounting screws with machine threads for the mounting nuts and wood screw threads at the top by the screw head are versed threaded? I just installed some in a baffle I made, and couldn't get half of them to seat properly. I admit I was "baffled" for quite a time. It wasn't until I tried to take one of them out that it seated itself. Another lesson learned the hard way.

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    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

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    Member HaroldBrooks's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the reverse rotation on a Pontiac motor distributor / firing order. I was a Chevy guy for the first ten years of my car antics, then I turned to Pontiac and after my first cam swap, I was scratching my head for at least an hour trying to figure why the car wouldn't start, ... even though I "Seemed" to have the firing order correct (it was just in reverse that is !).

    Once, and only once you make that type of mistake. Glad you got your situation figured out ! Life has a lot of lessons, some have to be learned the hard way, unfortunately.

    Good Luck from this point on !

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldBrooks View Post
    Reminds me of the reverse rotation on a Pontiac motor distributor / firing order. I was a Chevy guy for the first ten years of my car antics, then I turned to Pontiac and after my first cam swap, I was scratching my head for at least an hour trying to figure why the car wouldn't start, ... even though I "Seemed" to have the firing order correct (it was just in reverse that is !).
    Not to divert the thread, but I didn't know that difference existed between Pontiac and Chevy in "that" era.?. I was actually a car guy back in the day and I didn't know about this. I never changed the cam on my Firebird though. I did upgrade the cam on a few Chevy's. I guess that one slipped past me. I just find it surprising considering that Pontiac and Chevy were essentially the same brand (General Motors) and they commonly swapped parts between makes. It seems counter intuitive for a company to design incompatibility into their parts.

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    Why didn't someone tell me those speaker mounting screws with machine threads for the mounting nuts and wood screw threads at the top by the screw head are versed threaded? I just installed some in a baffle I made, and couldn't get half of them to seat properly. I admit I was "baffled" for quite a time. It wasn't until I tried to take one of them out that it seated itself. Another lesson learned the hard way.
    It's because those screws are made in the southern hemisphere.

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    Member HaroldBrooks's Avatar
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    Yes, most people don't know, unless they worked on a old Pontiac V8.

    Many mechanics don't know ! At one time the companies owned by GM were mostly independent, and even being bought by GM, they wanted to continue their independence, until it later became apparent that the cost was higher, so GM went full corporate and had more or less universal drivetrains.

    Here's the lowdown on several GM firing orders from yesteryear :

    http://pontiacformula.free.fr/en/allumage.php

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    Last edited by HaroldBrooks; 04-26-2019 at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    It's because those screws are made in the southern hemisphere.
    It was probably that frickin' J.M. Fahey guy or someone he knows...



    Jusrin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Not to divert the thread, but I didn't know that difference existed between Pontiac and Chevy in "that" era.?. I was actually a car guy back in the day and I didn't know about this. I never changed the cam on my Firebird though. I did upgrade the cam on a few Chevy's. I guess that one slipped past me. I just find it surprising considering that Pontiac and Chevy were essentially the same brand (General Motors) and they commonly swapped parts between makes. It seems counter intuitive for a company to design incompatibility into their parts.
    Most if not all, Canadian built Pontiac's had Chevy engines.

    It was rare to see one with an actual Pontiac engine up here.

    Sorry, just had to throw that in there...

    Back to topic...

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    The world is full of people that are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    Why didn't someone tell me those speaker mounting screws with machine threads for the mounting nuts and wood screw threads at the top by the screw head are versed threaded? I just installed some in a baffle I made, and couldn't get half of them to seat properly. I admit I was "baffled" for quite a time. It wasn't until I tried to take one of them out that it seated itself. Another lesson learned the hard way.
    I think the idea is to prevent the screws from coming loose in the baffle when tightening the speaker nuts. Actually easy to spot the left-going coarse wood threads.

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    Supporting Member nevetslab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    I think the idea is to prevent the screws from coming loose in the baffle when tightening the speaker nuts. Actually easy to spot the left-going coarse wood threads.
    I've obviously never come upon these. While having been impaled by the pointed right-hand threaded # 8 baffle screws typical in current Fender Twins & Deluxe Reverbs, as well as 70's + vintage Fender combo amps, I don't recall ever seeing any with left-handed threads for the nuts. Or, is the fastener that's threaded into the baffle from the front left-hand thread over that length of the shank before then going to the #8-32 right-hand thread we all see at the business end of them?

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    Or, is the fastener that's threaded into the baffle from the front left-hand thread over that length of the shank before then going to the #8-32 right-hand thread we all see at the business end of them?
    That!

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    Supporting Member nevetslab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    That!
    Interesting. I've never removed one to see that.

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    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
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    It's strange to drive the machine threads in clockwise, and then go counter clockwise when you get to the coarse reverse threads.

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    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    It's strange to drive the machine threads in clockwise, and then go counter clockwise when you get to the coarse reverse threads.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    In production the first step would be mounting the screws to the baffle (ccw).

    The principle makes sense to me.

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    Supporting Member nevetslab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    In production the first step would be mounting the screws to the baffle (ccw).

    The principle makes sense to me.
    Nope....never seen these fasteners. Try describing that (without picture or sample) to somebody in a hardware store!

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    I met these when I had a speaker nut I could not tighten. The reverse part that was screwed into the baffle had stripped the particle board baffle. Unfortunately the grille cloth goes on AFTER the mounting screws are installed. I had to take a pick & gently & carefully stretch the grille so I could drop some wood glue into the hole & then get a screwdriver to it. It took some time to "mend" the grille cloth but it went back with negligible permanent scarring.

    I like the concept, but it's a PITA if the screw hole strips...

    Justin

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    I can´t believe experienced Techs such as Randall and nevetslab weren´t aware of this, it has been THE Fender speaker mounting method for decades and you have each met at least dozens of Fender amps.
    I´m bewildered.

    In fact, there´s two versions: the "good" one involving dual threads and the cheesier half thread half winged nail so it does not rotate:





    notice the ad copy:


    Original Fender speaker mounting stud/nut set.

    These speaker mounting studs were used on countless amps of the 50’s, 60’s 70’s and beyond. The reverse thread section screws into the baffle wood and the machine screw section holds the speaker in place using the included keps nuts.

    Used on early ’50s and ’60s vintage amplifiers
    Fits most vintage and modern amplifiers
    1” of 8/32” machine head thread
    ¼” of reverse wood thread
    1-½” overall length
    8-32 keps nuts included
    Set of 12
    these are the cheapies:


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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Hmmmm... I don't know if I'd call the 2nd variety "cheapies," as they do seem that they might not strip out their mounting as easily like the way I discovered them...

    Either way, I think they were/are an elegant and creative solution to a problem that we now probably take for granted...

    Justin

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Living in Argentina I had to improvise, as always.

    I use regular machine screws, flush mount head, of course, drill a slightly too small hole in wood so it has to force thread its way in, of course proper thread, not reverse, and also not coarse "wood" thread , and when head is one wood thickness away I add a dab of epoxy to thread, then drive it home until head is flush ... works like a charm.

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    Supporting Member nevetslab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    I can´t believe experienced Techs such as Randall and nevetslab weren´t aware of this, it has been THE Fender speaker mounting method for decades and you have each met at least dozens of Fender amps.
    I´m bewildered.

    In fact, there´s two versions: the "good" one involving dual threads and the cheesier half thread half winged nail so it does not rotate:





    notice the ad copy:




    these are the cheapies:

    Well, that shows you how many Fender baffles I've taken apart, removed the grill cloth from, extracted these odd-ball fasteners. I never gave it a second thought, apart from being careful not to puncture the cone of a replacement speaker getting it onto all eight of the spikes, and trying NOT to impale my hand when reaching up into the upper cavity by braille to tighten loose mtg nuts.

    Always continual education here!

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    JM: I'm actually surprised how few times I've ever had to deal with these screws. If you don't do a lot of cabinet or speaker work, I guess it's possible to never have to deal with them.

    I don't like the idea of those winged screws. You either have to pound them in, or tighten the speaker enough to risk warping it. Or it just doesn't seat all the way.

    Here's a fun one. What's wrong with this picture?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's a fun one. What's wrong with this picture?
    Coarse threads are right-handed. Not sure about the machine threads. Mirror image?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Here's a picture of the same screws (with the lower tooth count lock washer) available from TAD. It looks to me like both threads are right handed. If they're mirror image then both threads are left handed. I wonder how a mistake like that gets made

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Here's a picture of the same screws (with the lower tooth count lock washer) available from TAD. It looks to me like both threads are right handed. If they're mirror image then both threads are left handed. I wonder how a mistake like that gets made

    Murphy's law indicates, once a misteak is made, they will do it over & over again, millions of times. That's called, setting a new world standard.

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    Murphy's law indicates, once a misteak is made, they will do it over & over again, millions of times.
    Don't mess with my steak!

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Don't mess with my steak!
    I always turn steaks right handed.

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I always turn steaks right handed.
    Hopefully not for the same reason you don't shake someone's left hand.

    nosaj

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    Supporting Member Randall's Avatar
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    "I can´t believe experienced Techs such as Randall and nevetslab weren´t aware of this, it has been THE Fender speaker mounting method for decades and you have each met at least dozens of Fender amps.
    I´m bewildered."

    Well, I certainly knew of these screws, I've had bag of them waiting in my shop for over a year for the cab guy to build me my cab. It just never occured to me they were reverse. I drilled my holes about the same size as the machine stud, so instead of just pushing into the hole, I drove them in with a driver. When I came to the wood screw threads, that's when I got very puzzled for a bit.

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    Last edited by Randall; 04-28-2019 at 03:54 AM.
    It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    Hopefully not for the same reason you don't shake someone's left hand.

    nosaj
    The hand you shake with (always seems to be the right) has different reasons in different cultures. In India, yeah, you don't shake lefty. They take it pretty seriously too and it's considered a very offensive insult to offer someone your left hand.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

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    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    The hand you shake with (always seems to be the right) has different reasons in different cultures. In India, yeah, you don't shake lefty. They take it pretty seriously too and it's considered a very offensive insult to offer someone your left hand.
    Pretty much the same all over the mid east, the "sub continent" and north Africa besides. If you really want to make a - bad - impression, pull off your shoe & smack 'em with it. Or just heave your shoes at 'em if beyond swatting distance.



    George was pretty good at ducking! Perhaps the shoe toss was a frat party activity he was good at.

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    Master Destroyer nosaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    The hand you shake with (always seems to be the right) has different reasons in different cultures. In India, yeah, you don't shake lefty. They take it pretty seriously too and it's considered a very offensive insult to offer someone your left hand.
    It's caused those left's are considered Evil

    nosaj

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    I drilled my holes about the same size as the machine stud, so instead of just pushing into the hole, I drove them in with a driver. When I came to the woord screw threads, that's when I got very puzzled for a bit.
    I was wondering what you were talking about earlier when you said "drive the machine threads in clockwise", as it should be loose and just push in for the machine thread part. Now I get it.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    It's caused those left's are considered Evil

    nosaj
    For good reason.

    Unless you enjoy a little Cholera, Salmonella and Yellow Fever ... and who nows what else can be carried through the contaminated hand.

    Old Religions are actually way more than just "religion" and usually carry a ton of safe Health practices built-in.

    Useful practical knowledge from way before anybody had any technical grasp about germs, sanitation, antiseptics, antibiotics or vaccines.

    In fact, given the apparently irreversible trend towards Antibiotic resistance shown by many nasty bugs, applying old "keeping it clean instead of trying to clean it later" tidbits are a good safety measure.

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    This has certainly become one of the <BETTER> examples of Thread Drift in recent memory...

    Jusrin

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    It actually didn't drift that far... We were discussing screws. Screws that poke through a baffle. If you get a shitty hand in poker you're screwed. No one wants a shitty hand.

    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    It actually didn't drift that far... We were discussing screws. Screws that poke through a baffle. If you get a shitty hand in poker you're screwed. No one wants a shitty hand.
    Hold that dodgy deal in your left hand then. But remember what's really important, pass the dutchie on the left hand side.

    2 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Enjoy. Every. Sandwich.

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