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Thread: New winder changed the tone

  1. #1
    Member GunbarrelCustom's Avatar
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    New winder changed the tone

    Iíd like any help I can get with this....

    My old winder died and I picked up a shiny new one! Much faster, but maybe thatís the issue. The pickups Iíve made on the new machine seem darker and less lively. Could faster winding speed be changing the final product?

    I did change my potting mixture to a lower percentage of beeswax though I donít think itís had much of an effect. I had always watched for bubbles and it seems like they are too heavily potted and lack that alive nature so I am going to go by time on the next couple to see if that is part of it.

    Thanks in advance.

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  2. #2
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Just a guess here, but did you get new wire?
    Sounds like new smaller diameter wire, per gauge?
    Also, if you are winding faster, are you winding looser?
    On HB Pickups, I like to Pot the whole pickup after assembly.
    Tht gives the coils minimum potting, but quietens the whole overall pickup.
    Please let us know what you come up with!
    GL,
    T
    **If you have any ideas, please jump in?

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    Last edited by big_teee; 05-02-2019 at 06:10 PM.


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    Member GunbarrelCustom's Avatar
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    Actually itís the same old wire.

    I did recharge the magnets and that helped a lot! Itís like the heat of the potting is demagnetizing the pickups slightly. Iíve been winding Tele bridge pickups to get used to the new machine. It just sucks to change pickups with the traditional bridge. Is Alni3 more susceptible to degaussing by heat? I know the originals can seem like there is no magnetism!

    If anything I think Iím winding tighter due to the higher speed pulling it tight and maybe too tight and Iím stretching the wire from 42 or 43 to 42.5 & 43.5 dulling the sound. It seems worse with Plane Enamel and I prefer modern poly for tone as scatter winding tames the ice pick highs. My next step is to wind one slower to see how that affects the results.

    Iíve only done one humbucker, for a Keef tribute Tele, and didnít pot it. I used A3 to match the bridge and it works very well. I just canít get that true PAF tone and response that the $400 a set guys can hit. I may try a degaussed A5 shiny magnet to brighten up the tone. I wired it with two volume pots and no tone so each pickup sees the correct pot value and the 11.5k ohm bridge doesnít need a tone control sucking high end.

    Iím also concerned about the value of the pots as the Mojo pots are seldom at the rated value or above. CTS quality has really slipped since 2012 when I built my first guitars. Just wish there were other choices for vintage taper, easy turn pots. Has anyone used the plastic bodied Bournes pots?

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    I've noticed the demagnetizing with heat.
    On the tight or loose coils with higher speed?
    I think that would depend on your tensioning device, and method.
    Like You said, you may be stretching the wire.
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 05-07-2019 at 08:03 PM.


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    Woodgrinder/Pickupwinder copperheadroads's Avatar
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    If your stretching the wire you will see higher dcr reading .

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    are you hand guiding? The machine spins faster are you traversing faster or at the same speed you use to?

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    Member GunbarrelCustom's Avatar
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    Yes straight hand winding. Iím trying to scatter less to add highs, especially with humbuckers though Iím not noticing added highs but more honky mids.

    My earlier pickups definitely have more magnetic strength and wonder if the rare earth magnets Iím using to charge the pickups have lost strength? Or maybe I got A5 instead of A3 early on as Iím using a different supplier. Could A3 vary the gauss it can hold from different suppliers?

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    Member jack briggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunbarrelCustom View Post
    I’m trying to scatter less to add highs
    Huh?

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    My earlier pickups definitely have more magnetic strength and wonder if the rare earth magnets I’m using to charge the pickups have lost strength?
    It's difficult to get a consistent charge in alnico bar magnets with short NEO magnts.
    If you run the neo down the edge of the longer bar magnet, you can end up with more charge on one end.
    Make sure you are getting a consistent charge on the whole bar.

    I agree that less scatter, makes a smaller diameter coil, and that IME make's it a little brighter.
    T

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    Last edited by big_teee; 05-10-2019 at 03:37 AM.


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    I can't think of a reason why a smaller diameter coil should sound brighter. The aperture doesn't depend on coil dimensions, it is determined by the magnetic field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    I can't think of a reason why a smaller diameter coil should sound brighter. The aperture doesn't depend on coil dimensions, it is determined by the magnetic field.
    The height (perpendicular to core) to width (along the core) ratio can affect self-capacitance.

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    The height (perpendicular to core) to width (along the core) ratio can affect self-capacitance.
    Yes, generally a tighter wound coil will have somewhat higher self-capacitance. From what I have seen, I expect the differences for a given bobbin and turns number to lie within 30..50pF. On the other hand a slimmer, denser wound coil has less inductance, which counteracts the increased capacitance.
    I think the sonic changes will be marginal.

    A much stronger effect would be produced by a difference of 10% in turns number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Yes, generally a tighter wound coil will have somewhat higher self-capacitance. From what I have seen, I expect the differences for a given bobbin and turns number to lie within 30..50pF. On the other hand a slimmer, denser wound coil has less inductance, which counteracts the increased capacitance.
    I think the sonic changes will be marginal.

    A much stronger effect would be produced by a difference of 10% in turns number.
    The issue was the shape of the coil, not the winding density (that being an independent issue).

    People do claim to be able to hear the difference.

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    The issue was the shape of the coil, not the winding density (that being an independent issue).
    My remarks were in the context of the OP's question, where only the winder was changed. Everything else (coilformer, wire type, number of turns..) I assumed to stay unchanged.

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    Member GunbarrelCustom's Avatar
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    Iíve done some like usual which where I traverse along to music. Iíve done a few where Iím trying to get what I think a machine might do and only scatter every few hundred turns. I donít like the latter because they are less lively (microphonic) and I didnít get the increased highs I was expecting.

    One thing I realized Iíd changed was I have been potting at a much higher temperature than before and I think Iím getting too much wax in the coil. I donít want squeal, but I like pickups that ring out if the body is thumped.

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