Do modeling amps get "lost in the mix"

[Chuck H]

Ok, LOL, I tend to have a quick trigger when talking about modeling, that has been established on other boards.

I used to own and gig with an early 70's Marshall Plexi, and about a Dozen or more other great vintage amps years ago (and a couple today still !), and it makes me laugh, bristle, and a bit sad when I catch a kid talking about the latest "Plexi Pedal" or modeling amp with an "Exact" copy of a Marshall Plexi, and asking why would anyone need anything else ?

I am in a 12 step program to stop trying to convince the young crowd that there's a difference. 99.5% of them have never been within 20 ft of an actual vintage Marshall, much less had the opportunity to play one dimed in a live setting, for the whole night !

Oh well, times they are a changin'.
https://www.google.com/search?source...31.wx4TmkyGMR4


This is definitely NOT a modeling amp, Enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZBlqcbpmxY

This post reminds me of the time I was playing a gig and, even though the crowd was on their feet and having a good time, the club owner came over between songs and said "Could you guys turn it down." I said "Sure." Reached over and turned my 1959 Marshall UP. Then I looked over my left shoulder and said to the guys "Voodoo Child."

[J M Fahey]

Just last night I stayed up late (think 2 or 3 AM, a couple hours ago) repairing a friend´s 80´s Silverface Twin Reverb.
Got 4 fresh JJ 6L6 , 2 fresh JJ 12AX7 which got in the first preamp stages, old ones were hissy buzzy, plus replacing toasted screen resistors, the wirewound filament hum trimmer *exploded* (there were bits and pieces everywhere plus leaving a large soot covered area around it), one former 6L6 also exploded throwing glass shrapnel all around, a mini WW3 scenario.

OMFG!!! , that is the real thing.
LOUD and clear is just starting to describe it.

He also has a MB MK 3 plus matching 4 x 12" cab (2 Celestion on top, 2 Eminence on bottom) ... not even that beast can match, live and dimed, the sheer projection achieved by the Twin Reverb.
MB sound even if tube is kind of "processed", and in my opinion too much messing with *natural* guitar sound is shooting own foot.

The Twin, like all classic Fender, simply "amplifies what you feed it", period, and that´s good; guitar can always be clearly heard through the stage ball of sound.

[Justin Thomas]

I would like to add,
I play my 67 Mustang Bass through either a 67 Bassman or 74 Bassman 100 (AB165 preamp mod) & a 68 2x15 w. real speakers. People say all the time they can tell all the notes, that I sound lively, goes right to the back of the room (several hundred people usually), etc.

So screw you & your subs, or plugging me into the snake, or your kilowatt "bass" amp with "bass" speakers. I'd rather energize people without disembowling them. So, yeah. 50-100W <IS> all you need. With real speakers.

Justin

[glebert]

Found something interesting that seems like it would be a factor in this. Last night I had been playing my old AX2 through headphones, had tweaked my settings and models to get something I liked quite a bit. Was playing with it again this evening and put it through the speakers and it sounded very two-dimensional, flat, thin, etc. I sat down in front of the amp (which is on a stand already) and the goodness was suddenly back. I found that, at least on that amp with those models etc, that there is a very narrow beam where it sounds good, and if you get even six inches above that it all falls apart. I don't know how much of this is a function of the stock speakers or if there is something about modeling that makes it more beam-y. I know all speakers will have some beaming, but compared to my tube 212s this seems much more extreme in the effect and narrowness of the beam. I could see this causing an amp that sounds good in isolation (when you are in the beam) totally get lost in a band situation.

[J M Fahey]

Sounds reasonable.

Just thinking aloud, I often see people fear so much SS/Digital amps being "harsh/buzzy/bees in a can/fingernails on a blackboard" sounding that designers overcompensate by killing treble in general.

Nice when alone at low power but on a band situation they crumble down.

Standing exactly on axis adds a much needed 9/12dB peak at 2k5 Hz to 3k5 Hz ... which sadly is on a narrow beam.

Even some tube amps do that.
Check , say, Peavey Classic amps; most (all?) incorporate a "warming" low mids boost circuit after saturation stage.
Nice at home or when testing (at lowish volume) at GC ; a blanket over your mouth on stage where they sound reasonably good but struggle fighting others.
While other Peavey amps, say the Butcher (which is basically a JCM 800 version) tears your head off your shoulders.
Modern Mesa Boogie amps are muddy in my book, but their Stiletto is approppriately named

[Justin Thomas]

I still think a decent amount of that problem (though by no means all of it, of course) comes down to, well... Just read the middle of the 3 quotes in my signature.

I've played everything from Champs to Super Twins, and ALL of them sounded better both close & across the room when played at snowflake-melting volume. My friend's Line-6 2x12" 200W combo sounded better on practically every model when louder rather than quieter. Nearly every SS amp I've played sounds better louder than quieter. My Prosonic opened a whole new world when I began to start with the Master on 10 & the Gain on 1, then working the Master down & Gain up to taste, while still keeoing it LOUD.

I stillprefer my vintage Fenders over anything, but practically EVERYthing sounds better when set to snowflake-melting levels.

N.A.B.A. - Not A Bedroom Amp.

Justin

[J M Fahey]

To be honest, once I got hooked with Evanescence weird vocals and piano based music and listened to quite a lot of their music.

And was impressed by Guitar player´s tone, specially live; studio recordings *can* turn a sow´s ear into a silk purse so not really a reference.

Imagine my surprise when I found he uses a Line 6 head

My mental comment was "wow!!! ... you have come a long way baby!!!!" applied to simulators ... and I left it at that.

Only much later and by chance (I had already lost interest) I found that although a "Line 6" in Brand, it was actually a macho man full tube Bogner "cooperation"

[Justin Thomas]

Hey, I'll admit they can be fun recording toys... But no, haven't met one yet that can stand with a real drummer AND sound not-painful.

The friend I mentioned who was using the Line-6? After a couple years of playing together he sold the amp & gave me the Variax to "try to do something with." (Dumpster after parting out) We always joked that he taught me everything I know about music & I taught him everything he knows about tone. He's been a total tube amp/analog convert since, and even when concessions must be made (recordings swapped & mixed across long distances) he's open enough to qualify it with "I'd rather do it witOUT digital anything, but (budget, lack of cooperation from others, other legitimate "excuses")..."

We had a running joke at the house that when a visiting musician came over we'd withhold a music stand; when they asked for one, we'd hand them the Crate modeling "amp" that was laying around. Then we'd give them a real stand after they gave us quizzical looks, and use the Crate to put our feet on.

We are the guys who say "What do you call an electric guitar without a tube amp? Broken!"

Analog forever, or as long as I can hold out. Yeah, I listen to YouTube on my phone, CDs, etc, but when it comes to my guitar playing...

Jusrin

[olddawg]

I play with a guy that runs an at least 15 year old rack processor and rack preamp into the “main amp in” on a JCM2000. He is always talking about his “Marshall Sound”! To me.. it always sounds like the same thing and is only useful for one thing.. “playing a very sloppy, loud version of Crazy Train”, lol. But he’s one of those guys.. he could be playing “Mustang Sally” or “ Browneyed Girl”.. still sounds like bad Zak Wild Crazy Train. When you use EMGs to slam an old VHF Wireless slamming an old processor slamming a separate rack preamp into a power amp input turned down to nothing.. it’s all compression, gates, hash, noise, reverb, and delay trails. The thing totally fails if any dynamics or a truely clean sound is needed. But he loves basking in the glory of his “stack”. Meanwhile I sound much better with a 20 watt 1x12 open back combo with a switchable speaker attenuator and a couple of pedals. I can really make my leads “pop” by switching off the attenuator.

[wittyusername]

Modeling presets might get lost in the mix but a properly configured modeling amp shouldn't.

[olddawg]

I used to play a lot of small(ish) venues. I had a beat up old 1960 Ampeg Rocket with a new Eminence speaker that needed the old, tired original amp fixed/rebuilt, so I simply ran a VJ head through the speaker out of sight behind it and used a couple of pedals. Basiclly the Ampeg was a speaker cabinet. I always had people coming up and remarking on the incredible tone of my “vintage” amp. I even used it a couple of times at the HOB. Essentially the rig was a 5watt Class A Single Ended amp through a 12” open back cab with an efficient speaker using a TS type boost (Bad Monkey) and a compressor (Modded Rocktron Big Crush). I can’t tell you how many times a sound guy told me it was too f@@king loud.

[olddawg]

When I gigged it was easy to identify the guitarists in any club. They're the ones that walk up and inspect your rig. Sometimes when it was appropriate I would leave the pedal board at home and plug my Warmoth strat straight into my Marshall. Now, my strat is modded with series and phase options that allow me to get huge tones. And the Marshall was stealth modded with a channel stack and my own tweaks, but done in a way to keep it stock looking. Guys would come up to look at my amp settings and ask me "How do you get that killer tone?" My answer was always "I dunno. It's just a strat plugged into a Marshall."

I used to play a lot of small(ish) venues. I had a beat up old 1960 Ampeg Rocket with a new Eminence speaker that needed the old, tired original amp fixed/rebuilt, so I simply ran a VJ head through the speaker out of sight behind it and used a couple of pedals. Basiclly the Ampeg was a speaker cabinet. I always had people coming up and remarking on the incredible tone of my “vintage” amp. I even used it a couple of times at the HOB. Essentially the rig was a 5watt Class A Single Ended amp through a 12” open back cab with an efficient speaker using a TS type boost (Bad Monkey) and a compressor (Modded Rocktron Big Crush). I can’t tell you how many times a sound guy told me it was too f@@king loud.

[Chuck H]

Essentially the rig was a 5watt Class A Single Ended amp through a 12” open back cab with an efficient speaker... I can’t tell you how many times a sound guy told me it was too f@@king loud.

There's a guy here on Whidbey that gigs with my amps. A Mesa Subway with a single 10" that I extensively modified and a 30W head with a 4x10 cab. I was at the show one night and I asked the sound guy which amp he liked the best. He said (flatly) "The little one."

[Randall]

"Modeling presets might get lost in the mix but a properly configured modeling amp shouldn't."

But they do.

[glebert]

OK, so I think we have mostly talked about digital modeling, how do you guys feel about analog modeling (a la Tech 21 Sansamp)? I had a Tech21 Trademark 60 amp that I fixed and flipped, I thought it sounded pretty good, the guy I got it from had been playing big gigs with it. I just fixed a broken Behringer V-tone GMX212 (V-tone is supposedly aping a Sansamp GT2) and I am surprised how much I like the sound. Like I really like it. I am thinking of using it as the house amp at the music hall I volunteer at. The SS Fender I have there now has a terrible, terrible drive channel.

And we know that nothing will compare your trusty vintage (guitar thing) plugged into vintage (insert whatever amp) cranked to 10 running through (some speaker cab) back in some glorious time in the past.