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Thread: Tube Practice Amp Adding Reverb

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    Tube Practice Amp Adding Reverb

    I have a 10 watt tube amp and would like to add spring reverb. I have a few reverb tanks the amp has trem which I don't use so could I use this circuit to add the reverb and how would I go about this mod?

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    We really need to see a schematic to say anything of value. What are the model numbers of the tank you have to hand?

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    One is a Belton bsn2eb2e/t out of a Kustom kpa80 pa head the other is a Accutronics it has 121-000159 and qc 233 out of a Hammond Concord organ the amp is a Silvertone mod 257.14211000. Tubes are 12ax7 preamp 7189 power 12ax7 trem and 6x4 rect

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    Last edited by Wolfman88; 10-19-2019 at 08:31 PM.

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    Still need a schemo. Not optional.

    The bsn2eb2e/t is a 2 spring, medium decay, 600 ohm input impedance, 2.25k ohm output impedance. Commonly made to work with an opamp or two.

    The other numbers I don't recognize. Grab a meter and measure the DC resistance of the input and output coils. From that we can compare with published data to figure out what the impedaces of the coils are.

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    Measure on the Belton ot the Accutronics? I'll try to find a schematic on the amp.

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    Its also known as the 10xl amp this is the schematic http://schematicheaven.net/bargainbi...rtone_1421.pdf its a sears and roebuck amp from the early 60s. I plan on doing some maintenance like recapping and new tubes since it has the original silvertone tubes. I want to replace the trem with reverb.

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    Last edited by Wolfman88; 10-19-2019 at 11:06 PM.

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    Here's a direct copy:
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Anyone? Please I'm new to modding amps and need guidance from people that know what their doing on this. As said I would like to replace the trem with the reverb tank so that way the reverb will have its own tube circuit. I'm making this amp as a tube preamp for my main stack which doesn't have reverb and I think it would be easier to add the reverb to the tube amp so I'll have a tube preamp with spring reverb. So please anyone I would really like to do this mod to my amp. The schematics of the amp I posted. Also I don't know what tank to use the long spring or med spring I'm thinking the Belton med spring because I don't use a lot of reverb but maybe the long spring would have a better sound? I have the tube circuit and pots for the trem I can re purpose for the reverb. And I need to know how to convert the speaker output into a line out I remember seeing this can be done but can't remember how to do it because using this as a preamp for my main amp I'll need a line level signal instead of feeding 10 watts into the input of my main amp head.

    So please anyone help I'm begging the people that can help to help me do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post

    So please anyone help I'm begging the people that can help to help me do this.
    We were waiting on you "Grab a meter and measure the DC resistance of the input and output coils." That's all the unknown ones, of course.

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    Like I asked before do yaw need the measurements from the Belton or the Accitronics It seems the value of the belton is already known from a previous post so I'm thinking yaw want the Accutronics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post
    Like I asked before do yaw need the measurements from the Belton or the Accitronics It seems the value of the belton is already known from a previous post so I'm thinking yaw want the Accutronics?
    The Accutronics as it's the unknown one. I gave you the info for the Belton in post #4.

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    What should setting should I use on the ohm meter 2K?

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    Strart on the lowest range, if it reads "OL" or something similar, try the next range up. This info would be in the instructions that came with the meter.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I *oogle-d the Accutronics number provided and it came up associated with an old Gibbs tank. Old enough that it would have been used in a tube circuit. Cap coupled or transformer coupled is still a question, but probably transformer coupled. Just an observation that may help.

    Other than that... The amp in question has only two preamp tubes. Or, more properly, one preamp triode, one driver triode and two triodes used for a tremolo circuit. If the Accutronics tank is for a transformer circuit then to get decent reverb performance I think we need one more stage. Or not, depending on how much we can bump the dry signal with circuit changes to recover what will be lost by balancing it with the wet signal. Looking at the schematic there are some opportunities to do this. Adding a transistor stage may or may not be in the picture considering that it would require the addition of a low voltage supply.

    That said, I think it may be best to scrap the proposed, available reverb tanks in favor of buying a new one. They're not prohibitively expensive, it's a known quantity at that point and most old tanks have some are related problems due to hardening of the plastic/rubber products used in their manufacture. This is a combo amp so microphonics may be an issue.

    I'll upload the schematic and modify it for what "I" might do. Trying to keep it as simple as possible.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Ok. It's a little clunky, but I think this should work

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    Last edited by Chuck H; 10-21-2019 at 06:38 PM.
    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Ok on the Accutronics I think there might be something wrong because on 200 ohms I get 29.1 on the output and 0.1 on the input. My meter don't go below 200 ohms. I'm going to need it explained to me in beginners speak because a schematic is greek to me since I'm a beginner. The Belton is a pretty new tank it doesn't have much use on it. The schematic posted I need explained exactly what's going on there.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post
    Ok on the Accutronics I think there might be something wrong because on 200 ohms I get 29.1 on the output and 0.1 on the input. My meter don't go below 200 ohms. I'm going to need it explained to me in beginners speak because a schematic is greek to me since I'm a beginner. The Belton is a pretty new tank it doesn't have much use on it. The schematic posted I need explained exactly what's going on there.
    The Belton tank you have isn't a good impedance match for a transformer coupled circuit. I'm not even sure it's a good match for a capacitor coupled circuit. And anyway, I don't think a capacitor coupled circuit would give you enough reverb without adding gain stages to the amp. The Accutronics tank is probably busted. I would have expected something more than a dead short for the input.

    A project like converting an existing tremolo to a reverb isn't simple. In fact, reverb circuits are sort of complicated. Even more so when you want to add it to an amp that wasn't designed for it in the first place. There are checks and balances in gain levels at every stage. And I'm sorry, but if you don't understand the schematic we're not going to get very far. Too much lack of understanding will make it prohibitively difficult to step by step the process. Especially since this is a point to point wired amp. Because of this construction method there will be much of the circuit that won't even be modified that has to be removed and redone. This is basically a tear down and rebuild of most of the circuit.

    I hope you weren't counting on being able to just sort of plug a reverb tank into the tremolo tube.?. Because this isn't really a "Grape jelly instead of strawberry in your PBJ" kind of thing. More like taking what you can from the PBJ, cleaning it off, adding some stuff and turning it into a bread pudding Some cooking skills are involved.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    I'm handy with a soldering iron and doing stuff like this I just never learned how to read schematics. So if I buy a reverb tank what would be best for the amp I'm using?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post
    I'm handy with a soldering iron and doing stuff like this I just never learned how to read schematics. So if I buy a reverb tank what would be best for the amp I'm using?
    Well if you take a couple of full chassis gut shots I can try to work out a layout, I suppose.

    The numbers on this tank should translate to other manufacturers as well, but I have included the MOD part number. The transformer is available at triodelectronics dot com.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Ok I will look up how to read schematics. Now is it best to use this tube amp or install the tank on my main amp that I'm using the tube amp as a preamp for? Also how do I convert the speaker output into a line out? I think I saw somewhere that you put some resistors or something on the speaker leads to lower it to a line out. I'll get the pics of the inside of the inside of the amp when I get a chance.

    The schematic for my main amp is here http://www.vintagekustom.com/ in the technical schematics by amp model and go to the piggyback and the 69 K100-1

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    Here's the pics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post
    Ok on the Accutronics I think there might be something wrong because on 250 ohms I get 29.1 on the output and 0.1 on the input. My meter don't go below 200 ohms. I'm going to need it explained to me in beginners speak because a schematic is greek to me since I'm a beginner. The Belton is a pretty new tank it doesn't have much use on it. The schematic posted I need explained exactly what's going on there.
    Your meter's just not good at reading low resistances. It's probably an 8 ohm input and something like 200 ohms out. That would really need additional gain to make to work so I'd forget about it.

    The Belton tank is, as I mentioned, best used with opamps (solid state). It's not much harder to wire than a tube but there are power supply complications. The easiest route, and by the sounds of it easy is the way to go with your experience level, is to go for a tube reverb such as suggested by Chuck. The cost is about the same either way but you would get to keep your tremolo with a solid state approach and there is quite a bit more flexibility as you don't have the gain limitations of tubes.

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    Last edited by nickb; 10-22-2019 at 08:57 AM.
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    The Accutronics has a circuit board that plugs up I don't know if its some kind of preamp or what.

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    Here's the board. Is a preamp that would give the gain? If this board is what I think it is all the work might be done already.
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    Last edited by Wolfman88; 10-21-2019 at 11:41 PM.

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    Since he wants to use this amp as a preamp, how about driving the tank with the power amp?

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Chuck, refer to Princeton Reverb. I am concerned the sample circuit you made might be shy of drive. Note the PR has two stages before the reverb is taken, while yours has only one. Or are you thinking the lack of tone stack will make it up?

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    I just asked on the organ forum what the circuit board on top of the tank is. I'm hoping it is what I think it is and that will save me a lot of custom wiring to make it work.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g1 View Post
    Since he wants to use this amp as a preamp, how about driving the tank with the power amp?
    That's pretty brilliant. The rig wouldn't find muc application outside of a narrow set of circumstances, but it should work great. Considering what Wolfy has posted about what he's up to I think this could be a great option

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Chuck, refer to Princeton Reverb. I am concerned the sample circuit you made might be shy of drive. Note the PR has two stages before the reverb is taken, while yours has only one. Or are you thinking the lack of tone stack will make it up?
    I actually wasn't concerned about getting full BFish reverb and dry signal drive levels. I only wanted to add reverb to the existing amp and keep it's performance similar to stock. The circuit I posted should do that. I raised the input 6dB (because the stock circuit SUCKS) and then added a bypass cap and a hotter bias to V1A for another 6dB. Then the relocated volume control and reverb mix resistor circuit dumps 11dB off the dry signal. Net should be about the same for the dry.

    As to the reverb... Notice the dual ganged pot. I have it arranged so that at full there is very little voltage division because series resistance is eliminated. The reverb is recovered, slightly voltage divided and then sent to the grid of the stage driving the power tube for further amplification. I figure at least eight or ten volts of wet signal with the control set full. That should be plenty!

    EDIT: Oh, yes. I am counting on the lack of a tone stack to provide adequate drive from a single triode. Pretty sure there are a bunch of Gibson amps and some others that filch the reverb drive from the first gain stage.

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    Last edited by Chuck H; 10-22-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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    Honestly... get a pedal. You won’t like an integrated reverb in a 10 watt amp after all of the trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Honestly... get a pedal. You won’t like an integrated reverb in a 10 watt amp after all of the trouble.
    Read what I'm doing the 10 watt is being converted into a tube preamp for a bigger solid state amp.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfman88 View Post
    Read what I'm doing the 10 watt is being converted into a tube preamp for a bigger solid state amp.
    That's actually just what he's doing. Since the tube amp is the preamp it makes more sense to put effects BETWEEN the pre and power circuits in any rig. Incorporating reverb into the preamp, in this case, could mean that the reverb gets garbled by distortions in the amp before being reamplified by the slave amp. If you add reverb to the system creating any distortions then the reverb suffers that distortion also. Better to place the reverb between the two circuits.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    I think someone hinted at it, but if this whole amp is to be used as a preamp, might it not be simpler to put a load resistor in place of the speaker, use a voltage divider across it to make a line level out for some power amp and ALSO drive a reverb pan directly off the speaker circuit. Then a simple recovery stage at the reverb out, and mixed into that line out, et voila.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    I think someone hinted at it, but if this whole amp is to be used as a preamp, might it not be simpler to put a load resistor in place of the speaker, use a voltage divider across it to make a line level out for some power amp and ALSO drive a reverb pan directly off the speaker circuit. Then a simple recovery stage at the reverb out, and mixed into that line out, et voila.
    That's what I'm planning turning the speaker out into a line out.

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